SPEAKER_01 0:00

For me, I guess creating an environment that takes into account the psychological makeup of individuals and whether that's people's emotions, whether that's people's personalities, their past experiences, their cultures, their values, it's understanding that the environment needs to take into account people. I think for me that that how I would very, very simply speaking, for me, what a psychologically informed environment looks like is understanding how you as a coach or a manager can shape the environment that brings the best out of people. I think that's how I would probably sum it up.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I'm on a mission to decode the Pi. Now what is the Pi? Well the Pi is the psychologically informed environment. Now that environment could be sports, it could be business, the military, the performing arts, basically any environment where performance and well-being challenges are present. I want to understand what the key characteristics are that apply universally, regardless of what sector it is, and equally what other elements that are unique to different environments. My interest in this basically comes from my work in two different worlds: the sport world where I am a sports psychologist in training with the BPS and run my own consultancy, and the business world where I do marketing and brand strategy and have done for blue chip companies such as Google, Microsoft, and Red Bull. My two worlds have run in parallel for about five years now, and I am consistently fascinated by the crossovers and differences between these performance environments. This podcast is an attempt to learn more about what these crossovers are and to share those insights with others in the world of sport, business and beyond. In each episode, I'll be talking to experts on psychology, business, sport, and many other backgrounds and speaking of experts. You've just listened to an expert from my hugely enjoyable conversation with Dr. Mustafa Darker, a senior lecturer, researcher and consultant specialising in individual, team and organizational resilience across many high performance domains, including sport and business. Mustafa kindly agreed to talk to me about his experiences. I really enjoyed this interview and I hope you do as well. So without further ado, let's get into it. Hi Mustafa. How are you? I'm good, thank you, Pete. How are you? Very well, thanks. Thank you so much for giving up your time to uh to speak to us today. No problem at all. Really, really uh pleased to have you on. I've I've seen you speak at uh a few conferences, both in person and via the amazing invention of YouTube, uh, which allows us to see more more people from around the world speaking at different conferences. Uh and those those listening to this uh that follow you and your work will know that you've done loads around uh the environment and and also resilience in in the environment. So um I wonder whether you you might be able to start us off by telling us a little bit more about how you how you came to this point, your your journey.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Yeah, so um I'm currently a uh senior lecturer um in sport and exercise psychology at uh Nottingham Trent University. Um so my role there at the university is is teaching and research. Um, and as you mentioned, kind of my main area of research over the last 10 years or so is kind of looked at uh the notion of resilience. Um, I guess in terms of today, um probably the main focus over the last three or four years has not just looked at kind of individual resilience but more looking at the notion of team and organizational resilience and the impact that the surrounding environment and the organizational um and and social kind of climate can can have on resilience. Um I guess in terms of my background around sport psychology, I got I got interested in sports psychology because I was an uh aspiring elite athlete myself and found it very difficult. Um I was technically and tactically probably better than my peers on the brink of of age group county, um, but psychologically found it very, very difficult uh to kind of take on board feedback and adapt to some of the challenges that I faced um in relation to kind of competing on on kind of you know competing on the kind of the stage or competing um in in high pressure kind of competitions. So what was your sport? My my sport was cricket. Um I was a leg spin bowler um who could turn the bowl ball a huge amount uh but just needed a little bit of help in terms of consistency when it came to control. And I guess that's what really gonna got me interested in the area was in training I was able to perform brilliantly. Uh but when it came to competition, um I found it really, really difficult to kind of translate my training performances and have that same level of of um that same level of performance in competition. So it got and that I guess that's where it kind of sparked my interest around resilience from a kind of a personal perspective is why is it that some athletes are able to perform at the highest levels um and withstand the pressures that are associated with that, whereas others like myself really succumb to the demands and underperform. Um so that really kind of started my my journey or kind of interest around sport psychology and um kind of did a degree in in sport and exercise science at Luffy. I then specialized in sport and exercise psychology, doing my masters, um, and my PhD focused uh directly on the assessment or measurement of resilience in athletes. Um, and then I guess since then, so that was in 2000 and PhD was between 2010 and 2014. Um so over the last five years or so, um, have started really to look at uh, as I mentioned, not just kind of resilience at the individual level, but also looking at resilience um at teams. And again, this is the work of Dr. Paul Morgan, um, so really shouldn't be taking credit for that particular uh program of work, but co-supervised Paul's PhD in the area of team resilience, and then just in the last um couple of years, I've started to supervise a um PhD student, Kirsten Facy, um, on the area of organizational resilience in elite sport. Um, so that's kind of been the research, and I guess one of my big philosophies really when it comes to research and my role is I've never really wanted to do research just for the sake of doing research. I've always wanted to have an impact on coaches and athletes and making sure that the research can be applicable on the ground and and in real kind of situations. So, I guess alongside that research, I've started to um look at programs where we've developed a framework, for example, a mental fortitude training framework of developing resilience, um, and on the back of that, have started to work with a variety of teams and organizations to help them develop environments that can facilitate resilience. So started to now to translate some of that research into practice, and that's for me the bit I really, really enjoy. Is I love doing research that is applied in nature and that can actually have an impact and um you know has an evidence base. I think the evidence base is really important, but as academics, I always feel we we have a responsibility of being able to translate that that research uh for coaches and and other professionals um so that research can actually be applied in practice. So, yeah, I guess that's been my my kind of research journey. I've done, as I said, consulting as well over the last uh few years or so, and um, yeah, that's kind of where we're we're up to at the moment in terms of some of that research and practice.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Great, great, fantastic summary. I'm really keen to to get into some of that mental fortitude training framework. That sounds very interesting, but I just want to quickly rewind a wee bit and and ask you there was a point there where you were doing resilience with athletes and you moved on to the organizational side of things. What what triggered that?

SPEAKER_01 9:08

I think probably um but a lot based on a lot of the research that we've uh we've done in terms of uh resilience, I started off looking at kind of uh psychological or or personal resilience, individual resilience. Um, and then I guess a couple of years later from that, with with with Paul's research, looking at team resilience, and very much in terms of the team resilience research, was really talking about or kind of suggesting that um relationships, the environment, the leadership, um, the culture, um, all of that seemed to be really, really important in teams being able to withstand the pressures of elite sport. Um, and at the same time, had kind of um was familiar with the work of Dr. Chris Wagstaff, who's actually on the uh supervisory team of this PhD on organizational resilience. And um certainly at the organizational level, you you hear of, particularly in elite sport, of organizations who uh I guess both sides of the story, organizations who've done brilliantly well, particularly in response to facing setbacks, whether that's cuts in funding or uh or personnel issues or changes, but vice versa, you hear of organizations who um haven't responded particularly well to to kind of significant change. So I guess the team resilience research started to um have a kind of started to really ignite my kind of passion, I guess, for looking at resilience at different levels and the organizational level seemed to be an interesting level to look at uh because it kind of encapsulates not just individuals but and not just teams, but also to understand the business more more broadly. Um so I guess it was, yeah, it was kind of basically it seems to have been a a bit of a progress from looking at resilience individually to then looking at teams and then to look at at organization. It just seemed to be a quite a sensible um and natural progression, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah, interesting. I mean it it it it does remind me of I I listened to a uh another podcast with I think it was Damian Hughes a couple of years ago where he he talked about working with individual athletes, and through those conversations and through those consultations, these uh these elements around the environment kept coming up in in these conversations with with his athletes. And after a while he he kind of came to the realization that geez, there's there's there's a lot going on here at this environment level, and maybe if I you know if I address that, I can actually have a you know maybe not bigger impact, but I can I can maybe impact slightly you know more people through addressing issues higher up the chain, if you will. Is that something that resonates with you?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Def definitely very much so. I guess one of my big philosophy when it when it comes to building resilience, and I guess that's another reason potentially why for me the organizational level um is really important, is that you see nowadays, I think, particularly with resilience training, for example, that whether whether it is in in sport or whether it's in business, um, or actually within the context of my role within a university, um organizations putting on things like, for example, resilience training workshops or resilience training courses. And one of my issues with that is resilience training, and we we've done some research that is a review of research which has shown that resilience training initiatives, resilience training programs can be very, very beneficial for mental health and performance, but resilience training alone is not enough. Um, and again, the other, I guess, uh performance domain or area where I've kind of drawn from a little bit is the US Army. So the US Army spent nearly over a hundred million US dollars based on a program that uh Martin Seligman did at the University of Pennsylvania. Um, and what was really interesting about that program is it got buy-in all the way from Congress, all the way from senior people within the US Army to people throughout the whole organization, to soldiers, but also communities and families and veterans. Um certainly based on my applied work, a lot of my applied work is actually working with coaches rather than actually working directly with athletes. And I'm I'm certain the research is suggesting that developing or tackling resilience at the organizational or environmental level, I would argue, is probably more beneficial. You're more likely to have long-lasting positive change than just by focusing on individual behavior or individual thoughts and actions. And that's not to suggest, that's not to suggest that um individually people can't do things in relation to building resilience. But I think if we're talking about if we're talking about the environment and organizationally, I think that's where you're gonna get um, I think that's when you're you're more likely to get more sustained change.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah, you need both, don't you? I mean you you you you at the individual level, ideally you want individuals who are appraising challenges in in a in a healthy way, um, but you also want environments that are giving them the appropriate level of of challenge and support, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah, and the in relation to individuals appraising challenge, you know, individuals appraising stresses in a positive way, I would probably argue that the environment that individuals are in will influence, and based on our mental fortitude training framework, we kind of argue that it's the kind of the combination of individuals' personal qualities and the environment that they're in. Uh, this environment, as you kind of alluded to, of kind of high challenge and high support, which is gonna both of those things in combination will lead individuals to develop um a challenge mindset or a challenge appraisal where pressure and stress is seen as an opportunity to develop and to grow. Now, if you just focus on the individual's personal qualities, um you're you're unlikely to actually result in individuals' um appraisals changing as a result of that, unless there are actually substantial um changes made in the environment. So for me, resilience development has always been a kind of a multifactorial endeavor. It's not just about focusing on one particular area, but focusing on a number of different things to ensure that you get, I guess, sustained success and well-being. And for me, the key word is sustained. Um, you might be able to do things for the for the short term, um, even environmentally, for example, if you're trying to do things, there's been lots of obviously in terms of British elite sport around high challenge, low support environments where short term that might result in lots of medals and um you know good success for a short period of time. But actually, if we're thinking about people as people rather than just people as performers, um, that that kind of high challenge, low support environment um is not going to be beneficial for people's well-being and mental health over a long period of time. So it's it's for me thinking about resilience development as everyone's business. Um, it's not just looking at the athletes, but also looking at coaches, the support network, and even at the organizational level, what are how are chief executives, how are senior leaders and managers translating some of the messages that they're doing within the organization and what what is that creating in terms of the culture and values that that organization holds?

SPEAKER_00 17:09

I think yeah. I mean you you've mentioned it a couple of times now, the uh the mental fortitude training framework. And I I think maybe you've you've alluded to a couple of a couple of elements there. Is it is it worth kind of digging into that a wee bit and and uh and um and describing that in a bit more detail?

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Yeah, so I guess the mental fortitude training framework is a is a framework that we developed um in 2016 on the back of all of our our kind of empirical research, and it was just helping uh practitioners and coaches to provide a framework to develop resilience. I guess one thing on the back of, I guess one thing preceding that mental fortitude training framework, which I think is probably really important to mention, is one of the important aspects that I do with coaches and with other um support staff is is to create an understanding about what resilience is in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Um a bit of psychoeducation.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah, for me that the the education bit and the reason I say that is because resilience as a term or a concept as a concept is starting to become a bit of a buzzword. Um so the the meaning of the term is starting to be lost in translation slightly. So, very, very practically, um, some education around what resilience is, but also equally importantly, what resilience is not. Um, and you know, in in very kind of quick sum in in relation to some of those ideas, one of the things I always would say in terms of resilience and what it is, is that we know it's an interaction or it's a kind of a process that results in the interaction between the person and the environment. And in kind of in layman's terms, I guess, what we're kind of saying there is that resilience is context-specific, it's something that can change depending on situation to situation, and it can change over time. Um, so for me, that's a really important part of what resilience is, and then kind of related to what resilience is not, um, one of the key areas for me is to suggest that resilience isn't a fixed trait. Um, and related to that, uh, resilience isn't a kind of a quality that is just found exclusively within the person. So we're starting to find more and more the importance of social support, also, as we've been kind of talking about so far, environmental factors uh being really important as well. So I've kind of skimmed through through that. There's lots more that we kind of discuss and might kind of uh talk about if I were to kind of do this with with coaches, but those are just some initial ideas. So some just as you said, some kind of education and practical understandings because that that that education or understanding has then framed our mental fortitude training framework, um, which is basically a three-part program focusing on on three areas. So, um, what we argue is to develop resilience, um, you want to uh focus on um people's personal qualities, um so these are the kind of the psychological characteristics that protect individuals from any potential negative effects of stress, and there's lots of research identifying different personal qualities in sport that we know have now been found to be important uh protective factors.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

What's a good example? What's a good example of one of those qualities?

SPEAKER_01 20:42

So, qualities could be um the ability to um optimize motivation, for example. Um and these these are very, you know, the language that that's used in relation to this is is really important. So it's not necessarily about high levels of motivation, but making sure that the motivation is optimal in terms of uh the nature of the motivation being more important than the actual quantity. Um, other areas, for example, around strengthening confidence, uh helping individuals to maintain focus, um, helping individuals to recognize the availability of social support. So perceived social support is actually a very important personal quality when it comes to resilience. Um, so yeah, those are kind of some areas when it comes to kind of personal qualities. Uh, but then we would argue that in the in the framework that the personal qualities are very much influenced by um what we call a facilitative environment. So we kind of break down the environment into two kind of areas challenge and support, um, where you've either got high levels of challenge and low or low levels of challenge, and then similarly high levels of support or low levels of support. So we break that down into a Quadrant. And what we kind of argue is that the most desirable environment for building resilience is this high challenge, high support environment. And a really interesting exercise that I tend to do with coaches in relation to this is helping individual helping coaches to recognize what each of those environments actually look like. If you've got a high challenge, high support environment on a day-to-day basis, what are some of the characteristics that you're seeing in that environment? What are the relationships like between athletes and performers? What do you feel in that environment? What kinds of things do you notice in that environment? And we would work through that through the other three environments: the high support but low challenge, the low support, low challenge, and then obviously the high challenge and low support. Just trying to unpick what those characteristics would look like. And the reason why that's really important is that then coaches and other support staff can then see some of the, if they see some of those characteristics in the environments that they're operating in, it can bring up some red flags about certain things that you can kind of see. So, for example, in an unrelenting environment, a high challenge, low support environment, you might see things like burnout or dropout. You might see things like isolation and withdrawal or people not taking risks because they're afraid to fail. So it's just helping coaches to recognize some of those environmental, I guess, characteristics. So yeah, you've got kind of the personal qualities and the facilitative environment. If I give you one example about why those two are really kind of interlinked with one another, we know that one of the important areas of maintaining focus is the ability to have a good work-life balance. So, in the context of business, for example, um balance and perspective is really, really important. So that's a personal quality that we would like individuals to have if they're operating in a business environment. However, environmentally, if a manager is creating a culture where there's long work hours, um, people are sending emails very late at night. There's just an unwritten rule about working hard and um you know behavior, or kind of managers are role modeling such behaviors by um, as I said, sending emails late at night, or for example, not taking a huge amount of leave or encouraging employees not to take that much leave, then actually, regardless of how much work you do on the individual to create balance and perspective, if environmentally things are not in place for that to happen, um you it's it's impossible to then build that quality or desired characteristics of balance and perspective.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

So what I'm hearing, what I'm hearing now is it can be quite subtle. Because uh, you know, I I suppose you could get a kind of a caricature um version of that low support environment that you're talking about, you know, kind of Wolf of Wall Street type Stratum Oakmont office. But what I'm hearing is it can be it can be supported in subtle ways. It you know, they're sending the emails late at night. Uh the other one that I've I've seen in in uh in companies is the way that employee of the week or employee of the month um are awarded. If that award ends up always going to the people that are staying late at night, then you know what is that communicating to people who you know maybe want to still be very productive but get home on time to see their kids?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yes, yeah, and exactly that. I think some of the some of the times those so subtle things that either managers or coaches are doing, and that's why for me the education bit and the awareness bit uh is really really important, is is often coaches will kind of say that actually this is the way that they've done things and they've they've always delivered results. Um and yeah, it's just getting coaches and managers to recognize that actually sometimes some of their actions and behaviors might not necessarily always have the desired effect, and it's also having that discussion about the impact that it um certain behaviors and actions might have on performance, but actually have a detrimental effect when it comes to well-being and and mental health. So um I think for me it's it's it's creating an environment where you can have high performance and also sustained well-being. Um, and as you mentioned, a lot of the times, some of the times it's quite clear and quite obvious that these are these are generally you know very, very poor practices. But but a lot of the times, as you said, a lot of the times it is more subtle ways of um subtle ways of just making small changes that will kind of make a you know potentially have quite a big impact in terms of how certain things are being viewed.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Okay, so we've got personal qualities, we've got the the quadrants, and ideally we want to be in, I imagine it's the top right quadrant, is it the facilitative environment?

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yeah, that's right, yeah. So you've got the kind of personal qualities and the facilitative environment, and in the mental fortitude framework, it's kind of you know, you'll see arrows going in from one another to kind of show it's a reciprocal relationship between the two. And then what we argue is that if you're able to enhance people's personal qualities and you're able to develop a facilitative environment, that's likely to lead individuals developing what we've kind of called a challenge mindset. So, a challenge mindset is a mindset where individuals view pressure and stress as an opportunity to develop and grow rather than pressure and stress to see in it that is threatening to people's performance and well-being. Um, and there's obviously been a lot of research in sports psychology around the notions of challenge and threat and appraisal, um, but also in terms of um in terms of challenge mindset, this has been a lot of the work that the US Army uh I mentioned them as an organization who've done a lot of work around um building resilience. And one of them, the main aspects of their program, although they don't they don't call it that kind of a challenge mindset, um, it's very much about helping people to reframe um how helping people to reframe um events and situations that might occur in their life. So they they have a seven-step program. Um it's based on a book called The Resilience Factor. And again, that's I'm always mindful of recommending resilience books because if you type in resilience into Amazon, you'll come across so many books on resilience. But the resilience factor is one book which is very, very practical, but also based on very good evidence. Um and the resilience factor, I won't kind of talk about all the kind of the seven skills that they talk about, but the the main skill or the foundation of the program is around learning your ABCs. Um, this is very much based on kind of cognitive behavioral therapy, um, and it's helping people to recognize that A stands for adversity, B stands for beliefs, and C stands for consequences. And it's helping people to recognize that it's not necessarily the adversity or the event or the situation that is causing people to feel upset or feel angry, etc. Uh, but it's the beliefs and thoughts about that situation that are possibly more important. Um, I guess for me, this goes back to one of the myths that are associated with resilience, is that resilience and particularly this challenge mindset, it's not about positive thinking, but it's about helping people to recognize that there is an alternative way of viewing a situation. Um, and according to the framework, if you if you build people's personal qualities and you create a facilitative environment, you're more likely to lead individuals to developing this mindset where people have good ability to view pressure and stress as something that might potentially be beneficial in terms of their development. And again, even within the challenge mindset, there are as long as as well as the ABCs, uh, there are other tasks around helping people to avoid thinking traps, um minimizing catastrophic thinking, the ability to put things into perspective, etc. So, based on the work, as I said, that the US Army have done, there's some really interesting things that can be done in relation to that, um, in relation to helping people to reframe um reframe different pressures or stresses that they might be facing in their in their career.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Great. And and and look, what I'll do is I'll after after we we finish chatting and this this goes out, I'll I'll leave some links in the description of the podcast. I'll leave some of the links to I think there's a pretty handy video of you on YouTube, uh Mustafa, going through the the four quadrants on a kind of see-through glass whiteboard. So I can leave can leave up that I can leave up the links to the uh the seven-step factor as well, just if people are a little bit more interested.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I did that uh kind of animated uh whiteboard for the Association for Applied Sports Psychology. So yeah, more than happy. I think it's only a three or four minute clip. Um of also in terms of the environment, again, in terms of for real practical, I you know, I'm more than happy if people wanted to get in touch in terms of the, you know, we we've obviously developed or published an article around mental fortitude training um and the kind of the comprehensive framework, but for kind of more practical one-page, two-page articles, particularly around the environment. Um, I published something in the Sport and Exercise Scientist Um Bases magazine, which is again only a one-pager which talks about you know environmental factors when it comes to developing resilience. And so, yeah, I'm more than happy to kind of uh if you were to include links, that's that sounds great.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Great, always good for further reading, always encouraged. Another thing that I I I noted when you were talking was how resilience, even on a personal level, can be so much more than one person, more than yourself. And and the reason why I noted it uh noted it down and and I was I was interested in it is because I've just finished reading uh Sam Warburton's biography, The The The Welsh and British Lions Captain, and he really goes to some length to emphasize how many people helped him during his career, from the the P teachers, the coaches, his wife, his parents, his his dogs, and it and it was very clear from his biographical account of his career that that that allowed him to survive some of the the challenges, some of the injuries, uh some of the selection issues that he he came up against. So I think that maybe that's something that potentially people don't associate with individual resilience is it can be more than you, it can be the the satellites of of people that that you surround yourself with.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Yeah, and then and I I definitely I make that point when I when I when I talk about some of the um the kind of the education around what resilience is and what resilience is not. And I think one of the myths is that to demonstrate resilience you need to be doing things on your own. Um, you know, um and again that's completely far from the truth. We're finding more and more from the research that um and also from from from accounts from from people who have gone through some some difficult situations is that social support is is really very much interlinked when it comes to resilience. And I guess the one thing to emphasize in relation to that is we make a distinction between the perception of social support and actually getting social support or receiving social support. Um, and going back to the kind of the challenge mindset that I mentioned, what we argue is that helping individuals to appraise or evaluate situations as opportunities is probably more linked to one's perception of the support rather than the support itself. So, an individual in any kind of environment, whether it's sport or business, as a coach or as a manager, you might be thinking that person is getting lots and lots and lots of support. But actually, if that individual themselves doesn't feel as if that support is available, it's their perception of that support that is more important than the actual support itself. Um so an exercise that I would tend to do when it when we kind of look at support and resilience is helping people to match the different types of support that they need. So that could be things like emotional support or tangible support, financial support, etc. And then trying to help them match which people or which person is best able to provide that particular type of support. Because often that's when support is or people's perception of support is not there. Is actually they're not, it's not that it's not there, it's just that they've not been able to get the support from the right particular person who is best best able to give that particular type of support. Um sorry, go on. No, so no, that's all I was just it was just in relation to um yeah, highlighting for me um or kind of building on your point about social support, that yeah, social support is vital, um, but from a resilience point of view, um, helping people to recognize the availability or the or helping people's perception of that support rather than necessarily trying to just necessarily more support or receive more support.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm sure you're sure you would have come across a study that I read recently by Brian O'Shea and and and McIntyre. One of the reasons for this podcast is is to look at some of the elements that kind of cross over different environments, whether it's sport, whether it's business, whether it's the performing arts, whether it's the military. And and they did a study, I think, last year or the year before, which was around the review of a resilience across the domains of sport and work. And they've got this really elegant graph on um page 82 where it shows some of those elements. They did a thematic analysis of the resources associated with resilience, and support is the number one, and and they show a quite a consistent finding of having that social support in work but also in business. So they find it across both of those domains.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah, and I I think um, yeah, I think I I would certainly say that when it comes to support, uh, that's not necessarily or um not necessarily specific to the to the sport context. I think uh I think that perception of social support. We we did a study looking at uh resilience um in high achievers across a range of performance domains. So that was sport, business, education, um, you know, uh law enforcement. Um and again, perception of social support was a really, really important part. Um, and that that is not just support from people within the performance domain, so not just people, not necessarily just your colleagues or your teammates, but also kind of perception of social support from people outside of or out of outside of your area of work. So that could be family or friends or or or peers. Um so yeah, definitely support when it when it comes to resilience, we need to move away from the notion that resilience is being able to endure by your own. Um and and again, that links into um for me the the kind of the notion and and maybe some of the language that's associated when it comes with resilience is that we need to understand that when when when when people um are having to deal with pressure and and wanting to um withstand some of those pressures, uh those social and environmental factors become become really really important.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Got a thought the the mental fortitude training framework. I remembered it. The mental fortitude training framework, since you you developed it, which types of domains, which types of performance environments have you used it in? And have you found any kind of nuances across any of those environments?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Yeah, so it's it's um the mental fortitude training framework is predominantly um been used in this kind of the sport context. Um so, but even within sport, lots of different um lots of different sports, um, lots of different levels, predominantly at the elite level, but also at the more kind of competitive level as well. Um we've started or I've certainly started to do a little bit of um work in the area of of business, um, but also in the next month or so, going to be using this framework um with uh medical practitioners. So um it's it's predominantly being used in the context of sport, but it is starting now to be applied in in other performance domains, as I said, predominantly um in business, but also um the medical profession as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Oh, very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

I guess the I guess the one thing to mention in relation to that when it comes to context is I guess resilience is is very context specific. Um, and that's certainly what the research would suggest, is just kind of say that the context is really important. Um and in in relation to that, I'm I'm always mindful of, particularly when it comes to the military. I think the military are one example where I think when when we're talking about pressure and the demand, I would never ever would like to suggest that actually the pressures that a sports, you know, an athlete might face are going to be you know in the same light of what the military face in terms of in terms of life and death decisions that are being made under pressure. Those are not necessarily some of those um conditions that um that athletes will face. Um similarly, when you're working in the medical profession, let's say for example, with surgeons, some of their decisions that are having to make certainly can result in some quite catastrophic consequences. So I think I think transl, I think one of the challenges, I guess one of the one of the um things to think about when you are translating some of this content to other kind of contexts, particularly other other performance domains, is is to understand the demands and pressures that that environment faces. Um and um particularly around reframing. You know, it's very might be quite an easy thing to do in a in a in a sport context, but sometimes that the element of reframing or or even changing the environment. I can I can imagine, I don't come from a military background myself, but changing military culture or military environments is you know going to be potentially a lot more difficult than maybe changing the environment within a a sport team or a sport organization. Um, so it's for me it's understanding understanding the context that you're operating in. Uh, that's what we would say is you know, generally speaking, good sport psychology practices, you know, to understand the the needs and understand the context that you're working in. And I think it definitely has capacity and and capability to be translated and into other performance domains, but there just probably needs to be a few considerations that need to be taken into account.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Yeah, well, I mean what I like that's going on here is you're you're taking a you're taking a model which is uh is already got that flexibility built into it. So you can take it into different environments and then apply it, particularly with the the the quadrants and and looking at the the personal qualities. Where uh some of this kind of transfer between sport and business potentially falls down from what I've observed is is where you know you go into a business environment and you go the all blacks sweep the sheds. So if we you know clean up after our meetings, then we're gonna be a great team.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

And it's you know, it's taking something that works in one environment and one context and taking it into a completely different one and going, well, you know, let's do that. So what what I quite like about this is it the model can kind of flex to apply to the different environments. It's not saying, let's do you know what we do in sport in the business world, or let's do in the business world what we do in the military world.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Yeah, no, and and and you and you're right. That the the uh the idea actually was it it's it's been published in a sport psychology journal, but actually the framework is you know a mental fortitude training, uh mental fortitude training for developing resilience for sustained success. And actually, that's success sustained success, um, and and the way that we've written the article, uh, and I hope you know it's great to see that the way that it's been received is that yes, it can be. Translated quite flexibly in other kind of performance domains. And certainly when it comes to the environmental aspect of it, those four quadrants, certainly the conversations I've had in business and in the medical areas, I think people can kind of see how that can be applied and helping certainly managers in business and also helping senior consultants and in um in the medical profession. People can kind of see the relevance of that in terms of, you know, in the end, whether it's sport business or medicine, people are leading team, people are leading a set of uh managers are leading teams to perform under pressure. Um so I think those environmental influences can can certainly be transferred. And actually, that's whenever whenever I I talk about the environment, I use I use the medical profession as a good example of why resilience training as a as a standalone intervention. And I think there's been some work published in the British Medical Journal, there's been some work published in nurse education today talking about why resilience training as a standalone intervention just will not work. Um and David Oliver, who who, if anyone has a chance to kind of follow on social media, David Oliver is a consultant uh within the NHS, and he's done a really interesting piece in the British Medical Journal that talks about resilience being a bit of a dirty word. Um and he suggests that um really really interesting quote to say that well, within the NHS, for example, um people are suggesting that doctors and nurses need to demonstrate more resilience. But what he suggests is that that then, to some extent, there's a little bit of victim blaming there, where responsibility of the organization, obviously, in terms of the NHS, you know, understaffed, not particularly well funded, the response, those kind of issues and at the organizational level then tend to be ignored and the focus then goes back onto the individual. Um, so for me, that's where it kind of translates, or that's how I use I use the medical, um, I use the NHS slash the things that have been said in in medicine when talking to coaches around actually making sure that the responsibility as coaches is on the org on the environment that is created rather than in inverted commas putting blame on the individual for not demonstrating resilience. So, yes, I I think that the the translation and the application across different domains are are there for sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

That's really interesting. I will definitely check out David Oliver and that paper. My my wife actually works as a doctor within the the NHS and will be able to attest to many of the themes that you just brought up. And I think there's a bit of a communication issue there as well. Because if you are investing in in resilience or whether it's social support, I know within the NHS in certain very challenging uh jobs they have access to uh psychological or counselling support to deal with, and and that's all really good stuff, but to fall into the trap of of communicating that that is going to solve all the kind of the ills and and worries of an environment like that is is probably one of the more sensitive areas, I would say, and and like you said, certainly doesn't override anything going on at the organizational level.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Yeah, and I think communication, and I think the other thing I would say there is in relation to language. So you're definitely right. I think communication between man or between actually the organization as a whole and actually the messages that the organization is giving, uh, but also the language that's used in relation to resilience. I think, you know, nowadays, if if managers were to suggest, whether that's in the university sector, in in business, in sport, or in um the medical profession, you know, I think, you know, suggest, you know, asking people to engage in, let's say, for example, resilience training, if if things are then also done at the environmental level, I think then actually that message is absolutely okay to suggest that these are some options of ways of developing your own personal resilience. But I think what people get frustrated about, understandably so, is that does that then negate the organization or managers within the organization not to take responsibilities for the actions that they're taking and the organizational, as you said, communication-wise, what they're what they're saying and what they're more specifically doing. Um, so I again I'm not at all suggesting that resilience training, and again, we we did a review of resilience training in the workplace um with colleagues um Carrie Cooper and Ivan Robertson, and these were resilience training initiatives in the police, in business, in education, in the military. Generally speaking, most programs seem to have a positive effect in terms of mental health and and and performance. Um but my my my kind of I guess overall message with that is that resilience training or any kind of initiative that is aimed at the individual needs to be accompanied by environmental change uh for there to be any kind of significant, long-lasting impact um on resilience at the organizational level. So it needs to really be a combination of the two.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Great. Well look, thank thank you again for offering your your insights and and experiences in this world. Before um we finish though, I'd I'd be super interested to know your perspective on well, the podcast is is named after it, the um the psychologically informed environment. Another bit of a buzzword that's been used a bit at the moment. What what does it mean to you? Does it does the the psychologically informed environment simply mean some of this stuff that you're you're doing, or is it part of that? Well, how how do you how do you take that to me?

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Having done a little bit of digging around, and and and I'm I'm not at all claiming these to be my own. I I've actually, when I've dug a little bit deeper around around the term, I've come across the you know, changing minds is a really very interesting company to do a lot of work in this space, both in sport and in in clinical settings. Um, and and they're very much of the or the their approach is very much looking at the psychologically informed environment. I know Elliot Newell, Dan Abrahams as a psychologist have also talked a little bit about this. I guess for me, using some of the language that that that those uh changing minds, Elliot and Dan talk about, for me, I guess creating an environment that takes into account the the psychological makeup of individuals, um, and whether that's people's emotions, whether that's people's personalities, their past experiences, their cultures, their values, um it's understanding that um the environment needs to take into account um people. I think for me that that how I would very, very simply speaking, for me, what a psychologically informed environment uh looks like is is understanding uh how you as a coach or a manager can shape the environment that that uh brings the best out of people. I think that's how I would probably probably sum it up.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

It's pretty uh pretty succinct. I like it. Well, look, thank you again for coming on, um Mustafa. Hugely, hugely appreciated. Where can where can people find you on the interwebs if they want to learn more about some of the work that you have done and are doing?

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Yeah, so I guess there's a there's a few places. I guess uh from a university point of view, um I'll there'll be a I'll have a staff profile. Um so I guess if you typed in something like Mustafa Saka, Nottingham Trent University, my my staff profile will be there. Um in terms of some of the research, uh research gates, I'll have a lot of my research on research gate, uh, which you do you know you can sign up to, but you kind of get access to some papers without signing up. And then in terms of social media, link LinkedIn, uh but also on Twitter, um I'm at MUS Musaka. So M-U-S-S-A-R-K-A-R. Um so yeah, either my staff profile, um, LinkedIn and Twitter, and then also ResearchGate.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Great. Well, look, thanks again, and uh best of luck for the for the rest of 2020.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Thank you very much, Vicky. And yeah, really great to have a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Now, if you are still listening, a huge, huge thank you for making it all the way through this first episode of Slice of Pie. At the end of these, I've kind of decided to pause and reflect a bit on the conversations I've had. And with Mustafa's episode, there's a couple of things that really stood out for me. The first is uh people who work in the more, let's say, organizational or systemic side of things across many different sectors, uh there seems to be a similar pattern with that that journey towards working with the more organisational side of things. And I think it's uh it's becoming first of all competent in your craft first. So whether that is uh marketing strategy, video, teaching, surgery, it could be anything. And then as you're more competent in your core skills, you start to become more and more responsible for the environment within which those competencies are practiced. So heads of strategy work on processes and managing workloads so people can upskill themselves, head teachers are in charge of budgets and new buildings where they can work with architects to make sure teachers and children are in inspiring environments, even down to the level of getting enough sunlight. You know, whatever sector that is, this tends to be the path you get good at your core craft skills first and practice in different teams and different environments. You start to triangulate what you think helps and hinders work in your field of expertise. And then as you become more senior, you become more and more responsible for pulling the different levers that affect how that environment performs or how happy and healthy people are in that environment. So I thought that was really interesting. The second thing for me was you can focus all you want on helping people to manage challenges, to develop resilience. However, if this environment is low support and high challenge, those performers or those people are likely to suffer over the long term. And that article in the BMJ by David Oliver, the consultant in geriatrics and acute general medicine on resilience being a bit of a dirty word and risk if used uh badly can lead to victim blaming. And I've read that article uh that Mustafa noted, and I think it's very interesting. So I've left that in the links along with all of the other links uh relevant to Mustafa that he mentioned at the end. So once again, thank you so much for listening. And episode two, I hope, will be out in about a week's time. So until then, thanks very much for listening.