SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hi there, welcome back to Cite of Pi, where the Pi is the psychologically informed environment, and the mission is to further our understanding of what that is. Whether it's sport, business, the public sector, the military, the performing arts, basically any place where performance and well-being are of importance. And in each environment, we have groups. We have in-groups, which are groups that we feel that we are a part of and a member of, whether that's a long-term stable group like your family or your church, or shorter term, more transient groups, which may be a sports team, the company you work for, or the specific team within that company. And then we have out groups, groups that we don't belong to, groups that we may have less knowledge of, we may even be intimidated or sometimes even threatened by these groups. Groups also form part of our identity, and identification with the group can help explain lots of behaviour from motivation to stress and well-being to leadership and many more aspects of life. Dr. Matt Slater from Staffordshire University and Krista Hartley from the University of Stirling spend a lot of time thinking about the topics I've just mentioned and many more besides. And they join me for the very first group interview on Slicer Pi. Dr. Matt Slater is Associate Professor of Sport and Exercise Psychology at Staffordshire University, a chartered psychologist and active researcher with interest in the psychology of leadership and team functioning in the performance context. He is also the author of the book Togetherness: How to Build a Winning Team, a brilliant book on teams and leadership published in 2019. Chris Hartley is also a chartered and HDPT registered practitioner in Sport and Exercise Psychology and a lecturer in sports psychology at the University of Stirling. Chris is interested in how to optimise the support that is provided to athletes at all levels and researches the effects of social support and group memberships on the performance, well-being and health of athletes and their wider sport organisations. His PhD research adopts a social identity theory perspective, which we're going to talk about in this episode, where he is aiming to understand how social identity and the self-categorisation process underpins the provision and receipt of social support. Chris has also previously worked in performance academies, university scholarship programmes, and consulted with several sports national governing bodies and a range of individual clients. He helped organise the second international conference on social identity and sport, the IDSIS, which took place in June of last year in Stirling, and you can find a link to information on the next conference in the podcast description. Now, when we talk about psychology, we can find ourselves talking a lot about the self. The I, the me. We spend time thinking about my identity, my career, my job, my performance, my well-being. Mine, me, I. But one quote from the podcast that keeps lingering with me is from the very first episode with Dr. Mustafa Sarka on resilience and his assertion that we need to get away from the idea that it comes down to our ability to cope on our own. In fact, social factors are so important. And this is where this episode comes in. This episode is about placing our individual performance and well-being within the wider context of the group that we are a part of. In psychology, one of the primary theories that studies it is the social identity approach, encompassing the social identity theory and self-categorization theory developed by Henri Targevel and John Turner in the 1970s. It's one of those enduring theories in psychology that still fuels a drove of research articles every year, building on its tenets, and using it to examine very different and various aspects of our lives, including sport and business. This was the very first time doing a group interview, so we left a bit more time to record it, and my word, did we need that time because there was so much to talk about. As such, there's going to be another first for the Title Pi podcast this week, which is the first two-parter episode. So we're going to split the interview in two, releasing this episode as a part one, and a part two will come later in the summer in series two. Therefore, there will be no half time summary for these two episodes, just one big chunky full-time reflection. Maybe think of a European Cup knockout tie with a home and away leg. So this is the away leg, and afterwards we'll pause and reflect at the end before broadcasting with a return leg in a few weeks' time. So see you in about 40 minutes for that full-time discussion. In the meantime, let's get into it with Dr. Matt Slater and Chris Hartley. Right, here we go. First group interview of the Slice of Pie podcast. Really excited to get into get into this. So we'll go to Chris first of all. Chris, how are you getting on?

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Hi, Pete. Yeah, doing well. I've lost track of the number of weeks it's it's been at home now, but doing doing quite well at the moment because uh our restrictions up in Scotland have eased ever so slightly and used this time to invest in a in a new mountain bike. So I've been getting outside and getting back to the roots of what I enjoy about sports and sports psychology, funny enough. So actually doing quite well at the moment. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Oh, lovely to hear. Nice to hear again that there's so many people have come on and said that they've been using the time to reconnect to stuff or try new stuff. So that's lovely to hear. Another person mentioned that the the days seem like they go slow, but the weeks are going fast, which seems to kind of chime what you were saying there. Um, what about yourself, Matt? Hi, Pete.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Uh yeah, it's been it's been okay uh in Staffordshire. Uh I think one of the things we found really useful is reconnecting with with nature and being outside, you know, or spending a lot of time in the garden, um, growing fruit of veg uh and some flowers and things, which has been really nice. Oh, lovely. And and also we have we have a pony, Shetland pony as well, and two pygmy goats and a spaniel. So lots of time outside um looking after the animals, which has been great, getting the fresh air, green space, uh, and and good connections with them. So it's been it's been okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Shetland Pony and two pygmy goats. Yeah. Was it two pygmy goats?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

It is, yeah. That's a that's a whole new podcast episode, probably. But we can we can set that up if you like.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

We'll have to get you back on just to talk about that. Yeah. Wow. It seems like you're living that idyllic kind of outside dream that us uh us Londoners are dreaming about at the moment on lockdown. So uh good for you. Um well, look, um, thanks both of you for coming on. One thing that I think has kind of brought us all together today is to talk about social identity theory, something both of you are uh extremely experienced um and interested in. Um I thought maybe it'd be good to get both of your journeys up to this point and how you got into learning about or being enthused about social identity theory as a part of psychology. Uh, can I go to you, Chris, first? What's been your journey up until this point? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

I've got two kind of relatively quick anecdotal stories from my own past with sport I could share actually. Great. It's it's basically just that when I was younger, I had a fantastic introduction to mountain biking and mountain biking culture as a teenager. And I was just fascinated by basically this notion of how we do things in certain sports and how that differs between groups and between different sports. And I think if there are any mountain bikers listening today, they'll they'll kind of understand this microculture where, for example, in mountain biking, if you're about to do your your last run of the day, it's an unwritten rule that you don't say last run to the people you're riding with because it forespells disaster, if you like.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Ah, it's like in baseball with that you never mention a perfect game when a pitcher is on a run. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Exactly. And the the funny thing is, I've I've taken people who are newer to mountain biking out over the years many times. And it's inevitable that someone who's new to the sport says that on the first day out, and the group will go very quiet immediately as soon as that happens. And obviously the the new member of the group is a little bit at a loss as to as to what they said to offend everyone. But I think I just throughout those kind of small instances, I got really interested as to this idea of what is it that leads to certain groups and certain sports doing things in these very particular ways. And why does that mean that we are aggravated in some situations by the people who aren't one of us and who don't do things the way that we do them? And I think for applied practitioners, that's got quite a lot of implications. If I think about the challenges that practitioners, you know, for example, face in terms of maybe not even using the right language when they go into a new environment or being perceived as not a member of that group. So that's that's kind of my first introduction to social identity theory. And then just a quick one, which I think we'll probably revisit later again, is when I was competing in in track cycling in the past, I uh I remember some instances where the race didn't go quite so well and come off maybe walking off the track with my uh confidence still in a few pieces, but it's still there. But then my coach walks over to me quietly and will say, you know what, your pedaling form was absolutely terrible in that race. And even even though that was well-intentioned, and I think there's a variety of ways you could interpret that exchange as a practitioner, even though that was well-intentioned support from sort of the leader of my group, it hurt almost much more than if it was to come from someone else. So I think there are some subtle connections there in terms of how you provide support to a group as well as some of those complex group dynamics that interact there. And I think social identity theory can really shine an interesting and practical light on that.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Love both the stories there.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Clearly, you're a man that is you're most happy when you put two wheels underneath you, whether it's uh Well, I told myself I wouldn't I told myself I wouldn't mention bikes more than once, but I've already broken that rule.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

So it's interesting that you're into mountain biking and road cycling because I've I know quite a few people who are who are into either. But clearly, as long as there's two wheels underneath you, you could be going downhill or on the flat or in the velodrome. Absolutely. You're a happy man. Absolutely, yeah. Um I like that that point you just mentioned there about sometimes it's it's those within your group or closer to you that make the comment that can hurt you the most. And I think most people can maybe relate anecdotally to how that works within families, how a kind of a comment from a sibling or a parent can really cut to the bone a lot more than, you know, kind of maybe the same comment coming from a work colleague.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yeah. Um, and I I also think maybe even, you know, there's a bit of an interesting thought experiment that can be done there. And no doubtably listeners and both of yourselves will have encountered this before, where you can have the exact same message come from two different people, but it lands differently. And I think we we don't really pay attention to, well, well, why is that? Is that because there's some sort of a difference in group affiliation? And if it comes from my parents, does that land differently if it was to come from my teammate? Because our parents and our teammates and our team have got different perceived levels of expertise and meaning to us in different contexts.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, absolutely. Well, look, can't wait to dive in a bit deeper into questions like that. But before we do, that's later. Please enlighten us. How did you get to this point? How did you start getting enthused about social identity theory? How did you first start getting into it?

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Sure. So for for me, it was around the start of my PhD, actually. Um, I think reflecting now is a good question because I'm reflecting now back on kind of my undergrad and postgrad courses. And it wasn't really prominent within those courses. And it was certainly when I started my PhD, being supervised by Pete Coffey and Jamie Barker at staff, that um I got interested in this area and came across the book um that became my Bible, I suppose, and and has continued to, called The New Psychology of Leadership, Identity, Influence and Power by Alex Haslam, Steve Reich, and Michael Plateau. And really, it was kind of reading that and thinking uh back to all the times when I was a kid attempting to open the batting, playing cricket, and maybe attempting attempting to open the batting. It's the key word in the sentence there, yeah, for sure. And the idea of the group connections there, a team and an individual sport, I would say cricket is a really fascinating dynamic there. But also thinking about the teammates and coaches and and the leadership wrapped around that and and thinking back as well to great PE teachers that I had in terms of their leadership and what was it about their leadership that made me, you know, want to follow them and be mobilised by them. And I suppose the the book was connecting those with those ideas that it wasn't so much about the trait of the leader in terms of their personality, in terms of them being a naturally born leader, but it was about leadership. So it's leadership and not the leader that really helped me to follow them and and would go through wars for them. For example. So that was a really nice time for me, I think, because the the book kind of reconnected with some of my childhood memories in in not so elite sport. I was a jack of all trades, master of none, I would say, in sport and you know, enjoyed playing golf, cricket, football, and badminton, but never never really excelled in in any of them. But that was really nice to connect that book with with those childhood experiences and then kind of gone on from there, I suppose, in terms of my PhD was focused specifically on the psychology of leadership, so applying the social identity lens within leadership. At that time, there wasn't a lot of work within sport and exercise around this approach, and then kind of gone on from there, really, in terms of my interest in terms of both social identity theory in terms of group dynamics, but also the social identity approach to to leadership as well.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah, so you've got you've got a couple of things that you're connecting there, your your sport experiences from your youth, and then kind of almost years down the line, understanding or coming across some knowledge or perspectives that are giving you a kind of a renewed understanding of those memories, but in hindsight, so you're looking back at those experiences and going, oh, okay, so that's maybe why it happened that way.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, for sure. And I think that the more I read, the more I was able to piece things together, like a jigsaw puzzle, I suppose, but also the more I realized that there was more to learn, and there still is much more to learn in this space. You know, we've only just scratched the surface, if that's in sport, and you know, reading outside of sport was a real big learning curve for me, just as a broader perspective, I would say, reflecting on kind of my career a little bit now. That actually there's so much work outside of sport psychology. If you look on Alex Hasling's research gate, he's published over 200 papers, and a lot of it's on social identity. And that's just one of the pioneers within our world and our space here. There's there's lots of interesting work outside of sports psychology that has got great opportunity for us to connect within sport, and obviously thinking about the contextual differences and dynamics and demands uh that are perhaps different, but there's there's lots of interesting kind of pockets there for sure. So, yeah, we it's in terms of the team at staff, we've kind of grown quite nicely focusing on this idea of togetherness, I suppose. And the book I wrote last year was was focused very much on that kind of science of togetherness, but also practical activities around you know, what can we do to unlock the power of our teams if we're working with them, both as a coach or as a sports psychology consultant. Um, so yeah, some some really interesting work it feels like we've done over that over the last few years for sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

I really like that analogy of the jigsaw puzzle. If you take Alex Haslam's research gate, there's 200 pieces of the puzzle sitting in there, but there's a lot left for us to to go and and understand. Alex Haslam was at Exeter actually when I was doing my my bachelor's, so I remember him, remember him well and actually did my dissertation on social identity theory as well. So I think we're all bound together in the same same interest. You mentioned the you know, that there is a bit left to go in order to, or a lot left to go in order to kind of understand this this world. Is there anything that you're working on at the moment that is kind of maybe slightly breaking new ground or or looking to understand something that you kind of previously have been wrestling with?

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah, I think there's a few a few interesting things we've got going on at the moment. Um reflect on a couple of projects, I suppose. One of the projects being led by wing commander Craig White, who who's uh Wing Commander. Yeah, a RAF officer who's been seconded to do his PhD. Um he's doing some really fascinating work applying identity leadership togetherness, essentially, within the RAF. And yeah, he's doing a really great job there, really pioneering work he's doing, and he's just had accepted the publication, it's just gone live, I think, his first study from his PhD, which is really fascinating. He's looking more broadly around the Robson Academy of Resilience and how the social aspects and togetherness connect with resilience. And broadly, what he did in his first study was that he went to visit 18 different REAS squadrons across the UK and also abroad, and he took them through an identity mapping activity, which is what essentially where you asked people to document what groups they're part of, the ones that are psychologically important to them. So not just every single one that they could note down, it had to be the ones that are that have value and psychological kind of significance to them. But they also took measures of leadership, social identity, uh, and also global resilience. And we found some interesting things. So, once upon a time, we kind of believed that our health wasn't so much to do with the social dynamics or the social factors, but researchers kind of moved along the journey now that we know that social factors do actually play a key role within people's health. And then we moved along the line a little bit more, and we kind of thought, well, maybe being part of more groups is helpful for our for our health and maybe for our resilience. And interestingly, what Craig found was that we didn't find that exactly. In fact, being part of more groups was negatively associated with resilience. But what we did find that was particularly interesting is being part of more positive groups was positively associated with resilience. In other words, it's how we perceive the groups that we're part of and see them as a positive contributor to our life and having meaning is more important than simply being part of loads and loads of groups. Uh, and that kind of makes some sense to us when you start to dissect it, I guess. But that was fascinating because it's a real novel context. So these were all RAF personnel that were involved in the study. Um, and certainly Craig's, there's a lot to come from Craig because he's he's gone on and done some great longitudinal work, and he's also taken the 3R model that we talk about in the togetherness book and applied it in the RAF across some squadrons as well, which has been really fascinating. So that's one real fascinating area that's been great to be involved with, and also other PhD researchers at staff that are starting to really connect identity leadership with people's stress appraisals and stress response. So this builds off our work we published in 2018 in Leadership Quarter, where we found that actually the relationship that we had at a dyadic level in terms of psychological connection with a coach or with a leader, it does have implications for how we respond to stress and looking at that from a challenging retrospective as well. So Aunt Miller's work, which is doing some great stuff in that space now, both lab and and longitudinal piece of work, where we're finding that identity leadership it does have implications for how people respond to stress. And one of the key things we found in the 18 paper was that it's perhaps more to do with the deleterous effects of having a lack of connection. So when the psychological distance between you and the leader and you're going into a stressful situation, then that lack of connection can mean that we're more likely to see a threat response kind of moving forward. So there's loads of interesting things, yeah, kind of kind of within that that we can talk about more.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Absolutely. We've got a page full of little dots and stars and interesting bits to dig into a wee bit more. One thing that you you mentioned there with that the RAF study, that is fascinating. That one. I love the I love this idea that through research, we can start refining these assumptions or these models. So we might have a previous assumption that the more groups you're a part of, the kind of the better it is for resilience or other things. But actually you're you're starting to refine it even more and go, actually, it's not just about the quantity of groups, it's the kind of the quality and your positive reaction to those as well. And I suppose even from an anecdotal perspective, those listening can probably cast their mind back to groups that they've been a part of, maybe earlier in their childhood, groups from school or university or clubs that were that were meaningful, but maybe over time you sleepwalk into this position where actually you're still a part of those groups, but they're not giving you as much as they used to. And you might think on the surface, yeah, I'm part of loads of groups, I'm part of this, this, and this. But actually, you know, I'm not getting as much from those groups as I previously have. And maybe there's some newer groups that have just sprouted out through new interests later on in your life that are the the ones that really give you that that power and that positivity. So sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

If I could actually just jump in there, I think Absolutely. You know, built building off that point, this highlights, I think, exactly why considering groups and the psychological groups we're uh a part of is actually it has a lot of contributions to make, particularly to the sport environment where athletes face uh unique challenges around transitioning between not only different phases of life, but uh particular domains that maybe the average person might not necessarily experience. And I think thinking about the role that group membership has to play in supporting. For example, an athlete transitioning from lower to higher levels of competition, but then also during unplanned transition experiences, for example, has a has a big role to play. And as Matt has said, I think providing adequate leadership during a time like that is key. But also the psychological and health benefits that are attached to the group membership during a time like that is key for, you know, from a from a duty of care perspective, to make sure that those are actually healthy, good outcomes for an individual undergoing that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah. I mean, that's something that is is being talked about a lot now, isn't it? The duty of care within sport organizations. Do you think that social identity conversations have got quite a prominent role to play in that?

SPEAKER_02 22:43

I suppose I'm I wanted to, I was just thinking as I was listening to Matt there, like, wow, he's done so much fantastic research. I should probably try and plug some of the work I've done as well. But um I uh I suppose I've come at it from the angle, one of those little anecdotes I shared with you earlier, that I think social identity has a lot to play in terms of helping behavior and sport, social support behavior. Because as you know, as Matt has said, it does form the basis for stress appraisal in sport and in group life more generally. But I think social identity has implications for how we provide support to not just athletes and sport organizations, but any group collective. And there's things to be said there about, for example, for example, organizational and group identities can impact what kind of support is perceived to be available amongst athletes and whether or not that's accessible to them, and then how they also engage with that. And that's that's some of the work that uh I smiled when Matt mentioned that earlier. That uh I'm doing my PhD with with Pete Coffee at Sterling at the moment, and we've been looking at how does the social identity in Scottish rugby, for example, influence the support they provide to this area of athletes transitioning into a different phase of life, for example. And actually the organizational identity within the sport organization shapes the support that they provide, but also more importantly, how it's provided in a way that the athletes will engage with it in a meaningful way. For example, you most people have probably heard the adage that I think came from New Zealand rugby around uh better people make better athletes. Yep. And you know, I think that's it's interesting that at a very macro level, rugby has embraced that as a sort of abstract, superordinate identity. And that that really does shape the kind of support that these organizations provide to their athletes nowadays, in that they make holistic support that goes beyond the rugby pitch more readily available. And it's almost becoming more of a normative thing now for athletes to to engage in this. But I still think as as Matt has alluded to, there's still a lot of interesting work that can be done to fully understand that puzzle so that we can essentially optimize that support that we provide through through using something like social identity theory.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah, there's lots of interesting elements there, Chris, isn't it? Just to pick up on a couple of things. Um, and Chris is doing some great work in this space and for sure around social support as well. And I'm thinking about, you know, we've all been in that situation where, you know, when when we receive support right, it's a good thing, it helps us. And when we perceive that there is support there, if we need it, it's helpful. But the other side of the coin here, which is also helpful, is that when we give support, we both win. The person we give support to generally takes that and it's helpful for them. But also we get kind of a boost as well because that's pretty helpful and nice to us. If you know, we've all been in those situations, I'm sure, where we've been able to help other people out. Um, and that feels good, you know, and the social identity dynamics wrapped around that are important to understand that to maximize those benefits of support, both kind of giving and receiving support, then we need to be seen as one of us. We need to have this group element that's wrapped around us. Um, and that's really you know interesting. That and just a couple of other points I'd make if we can around you know, around social identity and the importance for health. You know, if you think about what is a social identity, I know it's a really basic maybe thing to cover off, but it is important to fully um get into this, I think, because we have our personality. So I I could be speaking to you now as Matt's later, the individual, and Matt's my personal identity that's unique to me, and we've all got one. We've all got our unique personalities, and certainly to some degree, our personalities play a role in our behaviours. Uh, they explain some variants in the model, for example. But beyond that, as well, our social identities are to do with these group memberships we have that have value and significance to us. So I could also be speaking to you now within the boundary of being a sport and exercise psychologist, or being a psychologist more broadly, or being a Staffordshire University employee, or being a National Trust member. Yes, I am nearly 72, or being a Man United fan. You know, there's loads of different group memberships that we have.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

And these I think I was laughing at the National Trust and Chris was laughing at the Man United fans.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Well, yeah, but there was a time when you didn't get laughed at when you're a Man United fan, but these days you do, which is unfortunate. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:12

Sorry, sorry, go on.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

But so these these social identities we have are multiple. But the key thing is that these contribute to our sense of self. So we we derive our sense of self, yes, from our personality, but also from our social identities, our group memberships. You know, if you go out to dinner with a friend at the end of the COVID lockdown when we're able to safely, um, and you and you ask them what what they've been up to, granted, in the current situation, they might not have been up to too much, but they'll talk about yes, how they are individually in terms of what they've been up to, and but also in terms of the groups that they've been part of and how they've shared connections maybe with people during this time, virtually perhaps. Um, but that those group memberships are really crucial. And there's one particular study that I always find fascinating from 2018, Alex Haslam's paper and and colleagues, where they're interested in mortality and how people perceive mortality. And we can kind of spin this another way so it's not completely about death, but think about health, I suppose. And we can maybe think about this now, and the listeners can kind of go through this thought experiment now as well. So if you were to think about the factors that are associated with good health, then what sorts of things would come into your mind? You know, what sort of things would spring to mind? Well, what we find is people are really good at identifying things like the typical things like exercising and staying active, not drinking too much alcohol, not smoking. So people typically come up with these, but the the factors that they forget and neglect are the social factors. So the fact that we have groups, the fact that we're socially integrated, the fact that we get support, social support from these groups. So people, on the one hand, neglect the social factors. And actually, in this particular study, the population they studied in 2018, they found that those social factors were indeed the most powerful predictors when you put it all into the model of people's mortality or health in in our example, if we just spin it that way. So not only do people forget about the social factors or overlook them, they're actually sometimes, at least with this sample, they are the most important and powerful predictors of health. And as young males, which are categorized as all as Pete, Chris, and myself.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Okay, say that.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Um were the worst at doing that and neglecting the social factors. Because I think there's some kind of thought that maybe they're woolly, they're softer, the you know, it's it's different, but actually it's the really important areas. And then the final point, just kind of I wanted to say on on that that idea as well, is the whole piece around the social cure, so the new psychology of health. And again, if listeners haven't had a chance to check this out, there's a great book on this, great work coming out of Queensland, but also across the world looking at the social cure. And there's a really nice project going on called Groups of Health coming out of Queensland, but also doing some work across the world there looking at how being part of groups and reconnecting with all groups, finding new groups is so important for health.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

In line with that notion of the social cure, that that's actually both Pete and I have, Pete Coffey and I have been working on actually looking at doing a groups for health adaptation to the sport environment. And it's exactly like what Matt has said in sort of your average, well, that the in the population that Alex Haslam studied in that study in 2018, as he said, young males are the worst at sort of estimating the importance of the social resources to their overall mental, physical health. And that's part of what we've been looking at for this sport adaptation to groups for health is that, well, can we use that uh social identity mapping tool as a way to highlight to, for example, young athletes, particularly young male athletes, actually the importance of social ties, not just to their transition experiences, not just to their performance, but just to their overall sport journey and to what comes after sport. But I also was just, I always like hearing about the social cure. And it's something I'm always quite keen to highlight. I think it was, you know, Steve Riker and some other colleagues did some work into this that while groups are such a key resource to our health and well-being, they can also lead to what they termed as the social curse, potentially, which is that actually, while being part of a group, like Matt has said, offers the opportunity for access to all of these resources, they can also unintentionally sometimes form barriers to accessing them. And I think, as Matt has said, you know, for example, there might be some demographic, some subgroups which neglect the importance of social support and social group memberships. You can, if you think about, for example, the group norms and the cultural norms that might have, well, I do believe it's changing now, but that might have surrounded certain sports, the masculinity around it and the negative impacts that might actually have on things like help-seeking behavior. If you think about the mental health crisis in sport, why is it that athletes don't necessarily feel able to speak out and ask for support when they need it? And that could be because, yes, while they're part of a wider group that can offer those resources, that group can also unintentionally create social barriers or social stigma to accessing that support. And for example, feeling undermined or feeling weak for asking for it. So, you know, I remember when I first started studying social identity theory for my PhD, I was very much thinking more and more and more is better in terms of social identities, social groups and group memberships. But there is this aspect to it which needs to be considered that actually it can also unintentionally lead to negative outcomes. And I think, well, Matt Matt can probably add quite a bit of insight to that if he doesn't mind me hitting the ball back into his course.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Well, before we do that, there's I just want to ask a question there. Of course, because that is really interesting. The social cure becoming the social curse in some instances. Immediately I wrote down the word change because I'm thinking about uh groups that maybe have more stability built into them. This is a very, very general broad paintbrush because uh let's say uh families, religious groups can change just as much as uh as athletic teams um or businesses. But I'm thinking, do you imagine you're in a group which is British rowing and you've got all of the most talented guys up and down the country competing to be in, let's say, maybe four spots in the boat, you know, and you're in that spot for the world championships, but maybe either through your own deterioration of form or through just the epic acceleration of someone else, you are then outside of that four for the Olympic Games. That group that you were a part of overnight, you're not a part of it anymore. I mean, I see I see it in business as well when new CEOs come in and want to make their mark, or you know, you could think about it in football about a new uh manager coming in, and then suddenly everyone feels like their position is is under threat, that position in the group is under threat. I suppose those types of groups where the the opportunity for change to happen quite a lot may maybe have more of the curse. And this is just me spitballing and being hypothetical here, versus maybe groups that have a little bit more, I don't know, stability built into them that might be your family, your friends, you know, they're not gonna they're not gonna leave you at the drop of a hat, like maybe some other groups will. Is there something in that or am I just making things up that's a really interesting consideration?

SPEAKER_02 34:38

But what makes that an even harder question to consider in the sport environment is that actually the context of sport changes all the time. It's very fluid. We're actually Pete, myself, and uh another couple of researchers, Casey Neely from Sterling University, we're working with Zoe Black from Caledonia University, and we're looking at uh changing group boundaries in rugby and swimming as an example. So just to just a quick detour, uh, Zoe did a really interesting project looking at how, for example, in a swimming team, you might have to compete against your teammates in an individual race. And then you have to come together as a team again after that to race in a relay, and then you might have to compete against your teammates again in a subsequent race. So, you know, I think as you say that there are in some environments that it might be more threatening, for an example, an outsider, an out-group member to come in, and that might any perceived change might instigate some threat responses. In the sport environment, that's not as clear-cut because actually the sport environment can change all the time quite fluidly. And I think that's actually an area of research which can be looked at a lot more. Like what do these effects of changing group boundaries have on the way we perceive threat, on the way we feel and behave in the sport environment? And Zoe's second study was actually looking at um how this operates in rugby sevens as an example, because you might have players from multiple teams competing against each other throughout the course of a season, but then they have to come together under a national team and compete together. And that change in that perceived group boundary and identity will have implications for a range of things.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Well, that reminded me when you were talking about that just now, of some of the interviews that came out around the World Cup last time from some of the players from the early noughties or the mid-nauties, like your Stephen Gerards, your Gary Neville's, your lampards, who reflected on that period of England as being quite difficult because the tribalness at top level was so intense that when they came together as a squad, I think they've all said in interviews since that actually it was it was quite hard to come together and have that feeling of unity. There was always that perception of maybe that boundary. You're talking about that boundary there.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah, absolutely. And I think actually this is where some of Matt's work around effective leadership and using identity leadership as a means to manage that process is key because you might have these disparate group identities having to come together and function in this um new environment.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

That goes back to what you were saying before, Matt, doesn't it? You were saying that you know the multiple identities, in my head, it's this kind of Russian doll situation where you can keep drilling down those group memberships until you get to something very, very, very specific and the boundaries between them might be quite transient.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah, it's a good point. There's lots to pick up on here, I think, from an identity perspective. I think the first one is kind of going back to the point about importance and value and significance of that group membership. So, yes, you know, I think about university structure. I might be part of a sports psychology team, I might be sat in a in a department of sport and exercise, I might be in a school, I might also be part of the university. So you've got, you know, you've got four identities before we even get going here to navigate. But the key thing is to what extent are each of those identities important to me? Because some of them, you speak to athletes about this, some of them will not connect with one of the levels or two of the levels or three of the levels. They don't see themselves as being part of that thing. So, and you find this in business quite a lot. It's quite interesting, I think, that you know, some teams will feel a really strong connection, um, maybe with their immediate colleagues, but don't feel the affinity with the broader organization, you know?

SPEAKER_03 38:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Uh, but also vice versa. Sometimes you get that broader connection with the the brand or the company, but not so much at a team level. So it goes back to that point about perception. So, how does the athlete, how does the individual perceive those groups and those layers? Because it's not just about we're kind of making assumptions here that all the groups that we can document that Chris has, for example, that he also believes that he's got them. And this is why going through identity mapping and taking people through these activities is really important. Because we we get over the fact that we're making assumptions and we work through that together. And quite often we find this when we do the the three R's, for example, with with coaches, they they always say that they find out additional information about every individual on their team, but also that they made assumptions about the things that were important to them in terms of those groups. So I think that's that's an interesting kind of point. I think the other I think you've been reading my book, Pete, have you? On page page 41, we talk about um and page 42, we talk about that interview on BT Sport, and then it was I think it was Stephen Gerard, Frank Lampard Rio Ferdinand, and they talk about that exact point that as Manchester United, Chelsea, and Liverpool identities were so strong that when they went together to compete to live and breathe for England, they were still living and breathing for Manchester United, Liverpool, and Chelsea. And I think what's fascinating, and I I don't know what went on back then, and many of us won't, but I I think I think it's fascinating that we have to spend time and effort and do activities to create these psychological connections. We can't just assume that they'll come together. We can't just kind of go, well, they're all elite footballers, and therefore if we put them all on the bus together, they'll be fine. We've really got to spend time, we wouldn't neglect doing other elements of the sports science, you know, the SNC, for example. And we really shouldn't be neglecting trying to bring these people together. We have to spend time bringing them together into to unlock the togetherness of what England can become. And I think just, you know, an anecdote thinking about how well England did two years ago in the World Cup, it seemed like we'd made some good progress um in in that element. It felt like from from what people were saying, anyway, at least, and what you can observe from as an outsider that actually this was an England team that that was together versus an England team in the past that hasn't. Um yeah, there's just a couple of other things I think that are fascinating to talk about as well. I think that idea of putting other people first in the group. I think reflecting on one of the Lions Tour DVDs that that I watched a while back.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Oh, they're so good.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

And they're good. Yeah, we we used to use them quite often undergrad teaching and get people to dissect them, you know, from a theoretical lens because Justin Leonard talked about how if you're not picked as the in the 15, you're on the bench, then it's your job to make sure that you're the person who was picked ahead of you is in the best place possible to excel. I mean, that's just some other level of bringing people together. And I think the Lions actually, from what you see on those DVDs, were really good at that. And and there you've got different countries coming together to to compete and live and breathe for the whole for the whole lions going forward to to compete against Australia or New Zealand or South Africa or whoever it might be. So I think I think that's fascinating as well. And I think the the other thing is that within the social identity approach, and this is more speaking to self-categorization theory. So within the approach, there's two theories. So social identity theory is one, self-categorization theory is another. And this is John Turner's kind of work building on Tarshell's original work in the 70s. And one of the key elements there is around this idea of group norms and group values or identity content to use the kind of scientific term. But what this means essentially is that when people connect with a group, they don't they don't do so idly, and they don't just connect and they're gonna work together on on various things, they're gonna do it in a very structured way based upon what the values are. So the values of that group are what guide my thoughts, my cognitions, and my behaviors when I'm in that group and when I'm operating with that within that identity, if that makes some sort of sense. So and we need to think more intelligently about the idea of norms and values because you could clearly you could have a situation where everyone's really highly connected, so they have a strong sense of connection and identity, but the norms and the values are actually pretty unhelpful for well-being andor performance. So actually, the the creation of those values in a collective way that lead to some helpful values is really important. And then just one final piece on that is Steve Riker's dissection of the the 1980 St. Paul's riots is a fascinating read on this, and this is some seminal stuff, and you know, quite old now. Um going back to 1984, I think is the paper was published, but it was about the riots in the 80s, and he did a great dissection of you know why certain protesters targeted certain shops versus others, for example. And and it all came down to the content. So we we can't just look at creating a team that's really strong connect in a connection wise. We also need to think about you know, what are our values? Who are we, where are we going, and does that align with what everyone wants to do?

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Right then, thanks for listening to another slice of pie. Before we summarise, just a quick shout out to where you can. Follow Matt and Chris online. You can follow them both on Twitter at dr matt slater and Chris is at cyclin, that's P S Y, as in psychology, C-H-L-I-N, so it's the merging of psychology and his passion of cycling. I've left a link to both of those handles as well as a link to Matt's book, Togetherness, and a link to the new psychology of sport and exercise, a really exciting new book on social identity, edited by Alex Haslam and a couple of others, and including chapters from both Matt and Chris in this book, so definitely check that one out. From my Googling, it looks like it will be available in September this year. So all of those links in the podcast description. So, a new group interview format, the first slice of pie double header. I've never cut an episode into two parts before, kind of like a very diluted version of an East Ender's cliffhanger there. I'm sure those listening up to this point will be chomping at the bit to hear more of Matt and Chris talking about this area. And the rest of the conversation is fantastic, so please stay tuned for the second part when it's released in season two of Slicer Pie in a couple of months' time. So, what have we learned at the end of the first leg? Well, first of all, there were some nice links to other Slicer Pie episodes. So, for example, this assertion that better people make better All Blacks. We've heard this in a couple of episodes. It was mentioned by Leon Lloyd as well. But what was interesting is how Chris sees this through a social identity lens, with the credibility of the All Blacks in the wider in-group of rugby embracing this idea. This helps to accelerate that thinking as a normative thought in the rugby world, whereas that thought or idea might not be embraced to the same extent in other sports. I also love this distinction and soundbite, the social cure versus the social curse. The social cure again is linked to that Mustafa Saka assertion that we are more than just our ability to endure on our own. In an exploration of well-being and mortality that Matt mentioned, it's clear how powerful social factors come out. So when we are thinking of healthy behaviours, maybe scrolling through Instagram and looking at all those frightfully healthy looking influences we follow, talking about nutrition, exercise, mindfulness, yoga, etc. etc. Remember that one of the greatest things you can do for yourself is actually to engage in one of your groups or relationships. Or as Matt says, when we do something for someone else, we both win. I'll also take this opportunity to plug my own piece of research that I had published after my master's on elite athletes, religiousness, spirituality, and anxiety, where we looked at the strength of belief in a higher power. You know, you see athletes from many sports raising their hands to the sky during competition, and you might think, geez, does that play in their favour? Well, my study argued that no. It's actually likely that it's the group benefits of religion and spirituality that are more likely to benefit athletes than this idea that they have a belief in a higher power. Because if you're a member of a religious group, a church or family, then you are more likely to have social support, people to talk to, people to rely on, people that bolster your resilience to keep training. Maybe they even help you with housing or funding when other athletes might have to quit to find a job to pay the bills. The power of group memberships can be very wide-ranging. And then we have the social curse, groups that are important to you but also hurt you. There are plentiful examples of this in both sporting and business contexts because of the fluidity and transience and change in many of those contexts that Chris mentioned. Maybe even being cast aside from a team or a group at the drop of a hat due to form or changes in management, organisational changes, contracts, politics, and all the other things publicly reported by the media or privately admitted in sporting and business biographies. I suppose this also links back to some of our previous episodes with Leon Lloyd, Paul McVeigh, and Dr. Emma Vickers that talked about identity. And if that your identity is so wrapped up and intertwined with that group, being cast away from it could be especially painful. Finally, I really liked Matt's experiences of seeing social identity at play within the business setting, where some might have a connection to the immediate team, but not necessarily the overall business, or vice versa, where employees may fully buy into the vision of the brand or the company, but not necessarily feel that motivated part of or enthused by their immediate team. Matt also starts to talk there about what we can do to help, that it's not enough to assume these connections will just happen. I think he mentioned if we put them all on the bus together, they'll be fine. He mentioned the lengths that the British Lions, for example, go to to integrate players from four different countries who only three months previous had been knocking seven bells out of each other in the Six Nations. It also reminded me of a brilliant series on Amazon Prime that you can see at the moment called The Test, which is a fly-on-the-wall documentary following the Australian cricket team. If you watch it, you'll see the lengths that new head coach Justin Langer goes to over the course of a year to bring his team back together after the Cape Town scandal. Yes, there are the traditional team building activities, but also there are smaller efforts like going for a stroll and a coffee every morning when on tour, changing the traditional touring itinerary so the team are always together, creating opportunities of a lifetime to see important sites in France and Gallipoli where Australian soldiers gave their lives, and even having the one-day captain Aaron Finch be the first ever captain of an Australian cricket team to be voted in by the players. Through each episode, you really see him and the leadership team reinforcing the values of teamwork, mateship, and being an inverted commas good bloke. Time and time again. This is not just something that happens overnight. It's not something that is engineered in a workshop or done in a purely top-down way, but over a long period of sustained work led and role modelled by the leadership, but brought into and activated by everyone in the team. Now it's definitely worth watching if you haven't seen it. Well, what a brilliant first leg of the tie. Look out for the return leg in a couple of months, and in the meantime, certainly check out the links in the description to see what both Matt and Chris are up to in this area. That's all from me for this episode. Thanks for listening and have a great week.