SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello and welcome back to the Slice of Pie podcast with me, Pete Jackson. There's been a Wii break after season one while I record some more guests and get the head down in the delight that is audio editing. But it's with absolute delight I bring you this first episode of season two. And for a brand shiny new season, you need a guest befitting of the occasion, and Dr. Jamie Barker is just the person for the job. Former chair of the British Psychological Society's Division of Sport and Exercise Psychology and Pracademic with over 20 years of consultancy, lecturing, research, presenting and working in all manner of domains, from Premier League football and academy cricket to supporting the British Paralympics team in Rio, and from working in sport to business to the military and many other performance environments besides. Jamie is also the author of multiple books, including The Psychology of Soccer, More Than Just a Game, which came out this year in 2020 in partnership with Joe Dixon, Richard Felwell, and Ian Mitchell. So go and check that out if you're into psychology, if you're into soccer, or if you're into both. Jamie is also one of the nicest blokes around and kindly gave enough time to fill two episodes worth of insight and experience. So in a similar vein to the social identity episode with Matt Slater and Chris Hartley, we'll have a home and away leg, both about 45 minutes per episode, with one pause at the end to summarise and reflect. So if you like this one, stay tuned for part two on the conversation down the road. By the way, those looking forward to part two of the social identity episode with Matt Slater and Chris Hartley, it will be out around the start of October, and thank you for being so patient. The first part is one of the most listened to episodes in the first season, so really looking forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas on part two when it is out. But there's lots of great guests in season two before we get to that, including my guest in this episode, Dr. Jamie Barker, fellow trainee Louise Byrne, Elliot Newell from the English Institute of Sports, Richard Wardell, head of leadership solutions at Hanover Search, and former British Army Officer, and Ismail Pedraza, one of the foremost researchers and applied practitioners in the growing area of esports. So I cannot wait to get all these episodes edited and out into the podcast sphere in the next couple of months. Right, so season 2. The majority of season 2 has been recorded in or as we were first coming out of lockdown, so there will be lots of references to that. Which I don't see as a bad thing. It's been such a tremendous shock to society and to us individually that continuing to look back on how it's affected everyone is hugely beneficial. It will probably be a while until we fully process the myriad effects it's had on different people, in different jobs, in different parts of society, in different parts of the world. In this first episode, myself and Jamie somehow start in the world of lockdown homeschooling and end up talking about the benefits of building your network and learning from others. It's a great hitchhike through some of Jamie's experiences, and I hope you enjoy listening to it as much as I enjoyed participating in it. Enough preamble, it's time to jump into the start of season two and this conversation with Dr. Jamie Barker.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Jamie, how are we? I'm all good, thank you, Pete. Yeah, not too bad, I guess. During the uh g given it's raining outside, and uh, you know, given that we're hopefully coming out of lockdown now. But uh yeah, all good, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah, it's it seemed that when lockdown was happening, it was 25 degrees, blazing sunshine outside. Now we're actually allowed outside. It's decided to go to Wimbledon. Maybe it's because this is the kind of Wimbledon test cricket time of year, it's decided to rain.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yes, and I think quite ironically as well, you know, our kids have have kind of finished for the school holidays, and of course, it now decides to rain. So when they could go back to school and when they were doing a bit of school, of course, the weather was great, but now they're at home, it decides to rain. So uh there's a sense of irony there, I think, about that that whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah, sods sods law.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Sod's law, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

So how have you found that that period? Let's let's get that out of the way. How how did you find the lockdown period? How did you how did you navigate it?

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Yeah, there's uh yeah, doing a lot of reflection, I think, around um around that period. And I think what started off as you know, being oh, a little bit weird and a little bit wacky in some ways, um, you know, quite quickly turned into sort of mundane, um, really routined and very structured. Um, I think one of the stresses for us in particular as a family was trying to structure schoolwork for for the kids um in a monks, trying to maintain our work as well. So for me personally, work went um all online as as for for a lot of people, but it seemed to be that you know, we were having lots of time sitting, zoom calling, face timing. So, you know, not whilst I would spend quite a bit of time sat down, I think that started to plague me a little bit in terms of um you know just feeling a little bit down and you know, um felt fatiguing actually going from one call to the next to the next. Um I think the opportunity to do a bit of exercise was well received um and well exploited, certainly by us as a family. I think we that that was really integral and and paradoxically, I think encouraged well, we'd be an active family anyway, but I think it encouraged us even more so to really be active and to consider the well-being aspect of just going for a walk, you know. It doesn't have to be you know physically demanding, but let's just go for a walk as a family, let's try and have a bit of fun in that in that period if we could. Um, so that yeah, so so that has been been challenging. And then work, you know, we we all of the stuff that we were doing, so teaching Ven online very quickly, um, which wasn't an issue for me having taught online for a long period of time, but then also we started to do quite a lot of consultancy work online, having never met clients before. And you know, that that in itself I think challenged the status quo around some of the ideas that you know you've got to develop rapport and you can only do that by being around and gaining entry is about being seen and visible. Whereas we had none of that because we couldn't, and and on reflection, you know, I think it it certainly changed my considerations around the use of online as a way of delivering and um and you know working as a practitioner. So some some positives for sure, um but equally you know, some challenges, and and and as I say, it was around you know, trying not to put too much pressure on yourself, I think, because certainly from the school perspective, we were like most parents, probably trying to, you know, give the kids the best experience that they could, knowing quite quickly that we probably couldn't, and it was about how you mitigate that. And I think trying to become quite rational and say, look, you know, we're doing all we can here um with the support of the school, and you know, just hoping that that that'll be okay, rather than I think, you know, going for this. Well, you've got to be doing maths between 10 and 11, and and sharing that with with other parents, I think that they had similar challenges, and um yeah, so a weird world that we're in, isn't it? At the moment, lots of things have been cancelled. Um, we were supposed to be going to Australia for four weeks to to to stay at the University of Queensland. Um, obviously that that's been postponed. Trips with Oh no, yeah, so family, family trip as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Um I bet I bet that was a long time in the organizing as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

It was, yeah, and we were supposed to be going on uh at the end of July. Um, so yeah, everyone was looking forward to that. Um, but we've postponed that. Hopefully that'll occur next year if if things change.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Um lots of consultancy work, you know, trips with teams and stuff was was cancelled, obviously. Um which you know in some ways was was didn't feel too bad about because I suppose the last maybe 10 years of my life, you know, a lot of a lot a lot of summers have been spent where you know I I would be away for a period of time. And whilst it's great, it it was quite liberating to say, well, I've got a bit of space in my diary now. And uh I'm feeling comfortable with that space, I think, rather than try and fill it, just going, actually, there's a bit of breathing space here to maybe do some of the things that I've perhaps wanted to do, you know, from a personal, a family and a work perspective. So um, so yeah, I I think it could be a hell of a lot worse for for me. Um, you know, maintained a job, employment, and you know, and so forth. So there's a lot of positives for sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah, it's interesting that I've heard that I don't know how to describe it, these phases that you you talked about, the initial it being kind of quite weird, wacky, almost even kind of novel.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Um, I've heard others almost describe it as quite exciting to change how they're working, then how that then quickly makes way for a I know others have described it as a new normal, but a a new types of struct, a new type of structure, which then with the the limitations around actually getting out and and seeing people, then becomes kind of quite claustrophobic and quite quite mundane, as as you've put. So I've it's interesting to hear that um from from people in different work streams and different occupations describe these kind of similar phases to it.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that the phase aspect and and definitely that idea that it being quite novel to start with. And I think it is that you know, there is a novelty sense. It's certainly shaped or will shape how I think we, and when I talk about we, I talk about you know, the collective of maybe universities might do stuff. Um it's certainly shaped how you know I've been involved in work with the BPS, you know, uh meetings have been online and I think they've still been effective. I've done two PhD Vivors during lockdown, both by distance, and and whilst they've they they've been great, uh, you know, for me, that's probably one thing I would like to retain as an examiner because I think there is an element of ceremony or should be an element of ceremony to those type of events, and I think that can only be really done in person. But but that said, the other stuff, meetings, committee meetings, you know, um I I'd be more than happy to you know to do those with the comfort of my own home or the office rather than you know um be tear assing up and down the country um and spending you know a lot of money on train tickets or or petrol and you know the environmental um downside of that as well. So I think it's that's a good point. Made me realise that I can I think we can still be effective by doing things differently, and I think that's quite liberating as well. That that this is an opportunity, you know, it's a little bit like Dwight stuff, isn't it? It's an opportunity to grow rather than well, no, we should always do what we've done before, and um uh you know it's it we're quite fixed in how we see stuff. So I'd like to think that we it will shape how we do things, but like I said, I think there are some things, activities that probably have you know it'd be quite difficult to think of a different way to do them. But um, yeah, no, definitely relate to the phase stuff, Pete, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah. And um, as uh someone who's worked in higher education for a lot of your life, the educating the the kids, um you're in a good position, you're in a good position to take your your skills in into the home. I'm sure it wasn't as I'm sure it wasn't as simple as that.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Oh no, no, no, not at all. Yes, it in many senses it if only it was yeah, take you know, um that easy. But um, I think all what we try to do is just be supportive, I think, and um and yeah, try to yeah, provide that support, encouragement, and where possible, you know, try to give the specific information that the kids required. But yeah, it's a kind of a very different way of learning, I think, to probably how we would work in higher education. And again, that was I found that interesting just to reflect on, you know, the level of um not necessarily structure, but how things are done at primary and secondary schools in comparison to maybe how things are done at higher education. And you know, I found that interesting um to just to understand the the differences and and or similarities.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Yeah, putting on a new hat, not not just a uh a lecturer and consultant by trade, but also a lecturer and uh within the house, within the family.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

The one thing I realized is uh is respect can be a difficult thing in the household. So, you know, um kids probably wouldn't listen to me trying to give them advice on maths and science because I'm their dad, but they would listen to a friend or a teacher a lot more, and I found that found that quite interesting, that that dynamic there that, well, actually, you're my dad, so what do you know about this?

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, well, talking about accumulating different hats and many different hats that you've accumulated over the course of your career as a as a lecturer, support staff within power sport, going to the Rio Olympics, experiences in the in the military, in Premier League football, in uh academy cricket. Just give us a little hitchhike on on how you come came to kind of accumulate all of those experiences and and how you got to where you are now.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Oh, yeah, okay. I I'll do my best. Um, and I think it is a hitchhike as well. I think that's a great word to describe it. Um, you know, my first experience really in applied work was um, you know, I had a background in cricket, um, that that was my sport. And kind of when I did my MSc many, many years ago, you know, I I wanted to work in cricket. That was probably one of my motivations for sort of pursuing sports psychology was to work in in that sphere. So therefore, any opportunity to work in that area was something that I was keen to do. And I was fortunate at the time that you know um connected and uh established, I guess, the friendship, a long-standing friendship with Professor Chris Harvard and uh who is now a colleague, you know, gave me an opportunity at Nottinghamshire and um you know to get on board with the academy. And that was kind of like my first proper exposure, I suppose, in in a professional organisation. And from there on, you know, my applied experiences kind of just then followed. And I suppose it's one of these where you know you have some experience, you have some understanding, and you go to conferences, or you know, you might get involved as I did with within some work with the ECB, and then that leads to somewhere else. And then I through Chris as well, I did some work at Nottingham Forest um through some existing contracts that he had, and then from Nottingham Forest, you know, it was then kind of I guess got to do some work within the FA, and then within the FA, I then got into the Para stuff, which I've been doing since 2014, which then led to the Paralympics. Um and then I suppose you know my research is was always I was always interested in yeah, concept, you know, theory, you know, theory is is king in my in my view, but also how you take theory to the coal face and being able to translate that. So for the for for me, good theory is something that I can use and apply rather than maybe something that just resides in a textbook or looks good on a diagram. For me, it has to lead to practical change. So I was always quite obsessed with you know this idea of if I was going to work in cricket, how could I make somebody bowl better or bat better or bat more consistently? And therefore, I suppose my research interests have kind of followed that. So, you know, first of all, started around the idea of hypnosis and how we could use that, um, and then looking at how we can bring about changes within teams, and then I suppose more recently through the great work and collaborations with Dr. Matt Slater, looking at leadership from a social identity perspective and how we use identity to shape groups, but also how we use it to influence leadership, and and that then influenced the work that we do within the REF. So um, you know, we've taken that more recently in into that field. Yeah, so it's you know, I often look back and think, Crikey, how how have I, you know, Crikey, there's a lot more there's a lot of people who have got a lot more experience than me, but I think I've been very, very fortunate. I probably was always prepared to have a go as well. And um, I've never been great at networking. I've not particularly, you know, it's not something I enjoy, so therefore I don't think it's that. I think it was just you know, through my supervisor, Professor Mark Jones, who was you know a great advocate of the of of the things I was trying to do, I think he you know gave you the confidence or the tried to push you in the right direction, and then from there on you then establish connections and relationships that that then lead to opportunities. And I've I've always tried to live my life, um probably based on parents, really, around this idea of no regrets, you know, give something a go, and if it doesn't work, well, at least you had a go. And I tried to take that into every experience, and as as I got older, I feel more comfortable that you know I'm not going to be successful or effective in every situation I go into. But but that idea of well, you know, what's the worst that could happen here? You know, give it a go. I've always tried to take that into every situation I have, and you know, I have been very fortunate to to be around, you know, elite military groups recently, um, spent some time with those guys, you know, fascinating. And you know, I've worked with lawyers, I've worked with medics, I've worked with um blue chip organizations, you know. I never thought I'd be doing this stuff, but generally it's it's come about through people that you come into contact with, you have a connection with, and I think they might see the value in maybe how you perhaps present your ideas or some of the ideas that you have and and want to give it a go. And yeah, um, but but I often feel quite fruitless when I'm trying to give advice to people that I supervise or you know, PhD students, they often feel yeah, I'm not sure there's ever been a it's gonna sound quite bad. I'm not sure there's ever been a coherent strategy. I and talking to you, Pete, you know, around strategy and marketing, you you you know, you know, I realize I'm I'm talking to an expert there and uh Well what was the what was the quote from from Mike Tyson, everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face? But I don't think I've ever had a plan. I think that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

So just the punches for you then.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

It is. I I think I've got good at dealing with them, yeah. But I think the plan has always been to you know, um try to try to do as as good a job as you can, both research and practice and teach research, practice and teaching, but just to kind of see where you I could go, you know, the challenge is always with myself, I suppose. And um yeah, I'm not really sure what the plan is. Um there there is a plan, I'm I'm being quite playful, I suppose. You know, the there is a plan in terms of a goal and an aspiration, but um how I get there is probably less precise.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

So you know, yeah. Well we'll we'll return to that because I think there's something quite interesting in in that. Um and and also the crossover work coming out of of not just sport but working in the military, uh, medicine, law, business. I think that'd be really interesting to get into as well. But I want to reflect on your your journey there. How the way that you describe it seems like this kind of this kind of this waterfall, kind of starting off in cricket, but then that led to Notts Forest, which led to the FA, which led to power stuff, Paralympics, and et cetera, et cetera. It's it it kind of at the time, did you kind of notice how these kind of doors were opening to you when you were working? And and did that make you kind of reflect on actually, if I just give something a go and and do and work really hard, then other things tend to open up. So, did did that kind of appear to you? Is that something you reflected on at the time that I don't necessarily need to have this this concrete plan? Because if I just commit to these values of doing good work and working hard, things tend to just kind of work out, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

And actually, as you say in it saying that and feeding that back, that probably is it, you know, that yeah, definitely. That when I seem to put invest lots of effort that there seem to be opportunities that came about. But but you know I will I'm I I've worked with and I've I've been I benefit from working with some excellent colleagues that you know I I'm more than comfortable to call my friends as well. And you know that they are integral and have had excellent PhD students and have excellent PhD students and and they you know help to drive some of the ideas that that I might have and or we might develop between ourselves. So I think you know that there are there are a lot of good um people that have supported the things that I've been interested in or have been prepared to maybe share some of that ethos as well around well let's have a go here. You know and I think back to when Martin Turner and and myself started to do some work with with Sony you know it was an environment that we have never worked in before. And but because of a connection that we had and and the confidence that they gave us you know we were prepared to give it a go and from the back of that you know I don't I don't I think that really gave us a real kick start into actually do you know what we we're pretty comfortable in this environment and nobody laughed at us nobody told us we were useless. What actually we got was a lot of positive feedback and we we got some really nice um some nice data and we did some really nice work. So I think there is that idea definitely that the harder I worked certainly I think the per probably the two to three years after finishing my PhD you know I I uh co-authored a a book um I co-authored a special issue um I probably did lots of conference presentations workshops I was doing a lot of applied work as well you know that period there was on reflection was probably where I invested a lot a lot of effort and equally at the same time we had our first child and you know I look back there and some of my working practices I'm not I'm not proud of you know I I would get up at six o'clock I'd be in work for seven I'd be maximizing that time before people got in I suppose you know to do the to do the normal hours um there would be a lot of evenings there would be and again I'm not proud of it um you know probably two out of every four weekends as well that was that were dedicated but you know I'm kind of contradicting myself but but was that valuable um it's a difficult one um it was valuable in the sense that it probably helped to create some opportunities yeah but then the cost of that you know is at the time I I didn't realize what the cost was because you know I was a lot younger you have a lot more energy you're obviously very passionate enthusiastic you know two years out of a PhD you know your world is your oyster but then the cost of that you know I quite quickly realized or didn't probably quickly realize but I certainly realized at some point that that's just not sustainable that and and neither is it good or healthy you know like I stopped playing cricket I reduced the amount of times I played golf physical activity seemed more of a means to an end rather than a thing I enjoyed it was you know the work was the focus so you know I a lot of the support I try to give to people I supervise is you know that can only work for a period but actually if you can avoid not doing that I'd highly recommend it because I'm just not sure it's a good thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Yeah it sounds uh I'm getting a bit of deja vu here the second ever episode of of the podcast with Richard Keegan we we talked a lot about these themes and um it's really interesting to to see them come up again. One of the things we discussed at the time was having been through that cycle and you know you see that over a in a lot of different industries Ariana Huffington's written written a book about it called Thrive about how she you know got to the point of burnout and now looks back and thinks she she might have done it a bit differently. But also the the kind of I think something you're getting to here the awareness that actually telling the younger versions of ourselves that or telling younger people who are going through that period now it's quite hard to convince because they'll see people who've got to that position and go well actually you went through that that tumultuous period and you came out the other side and you know the work that you put in has got you there. And I think what what was quite interesting that Richard said in that uh that interview was I kind of I appreciate that. And um you know I think even telling my younger self would be hard to can convince him otherwise but actually just making people aware of the potential costs means that they can go into that period with their eyes open knowing that they they're kind of making a conscious choice about how they want to structure their lives. And I wonder whether in our industry it is maybe getting through a wee bit more. I mean I'm seeing loads more articles now about the self-care of stage two trainees. I myself have been asked to participate in probably about five MSc studies around the self-care of uh being a stage two trainee even the last couple of years so even just having that literature out there for people to be able to see and learn from is is is pretty useful I think.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yeah massive I mean I completely agree with the the self-care stuff and and even you know the the the reflections that you've given around around Richard and um you know I think if I was to have a conversation with my younger self it would be difficult you know still to convince myself that you know he's off but I suppose what I try to do now is role model try to give a positive role model to those that I work with and I'm always conscious of you know when I send emails or you know the deadlines I would expect and trying to role model that that you know I'm not sending emails at ridiculous times or or anything like that. And and almost try to encourage this idea that you know if you do choose to work in the evening or whatever it is make sure that's your choice make sure that it's because it's intrinsically valuable to you and you know almost dare I say it kind of a hobby and and and I suppose that was the other thing as well that when I look back to the that really intense period I did enjoy it and I do enjoy investing the intrinsic value of you know working on books or a chapter or a paper. So so it's it's sometimes difficult to to see that as work. It's just but but that can be that can be dangerous. And I think you know it's that how do you how are you motivated? Are you motivated by the outcome so I've just got to get a number of papers or I've got to submit a number of grants or are you motivated through the journey and for me it was very much the intrinsic satisfaction mastery it was all those and and but again the thing to probably realize is that there can be a cost of that so we're all encouraged that intrinsic motivation is really good but but actually I think that can still lead to a dangerous path as well because you know again where do you draw the line where do you stop seeking mastery or satisfaction or enjoyment yeah um I think the self-care stuff is is massive and you know I probably I I update my LinkedIn profile I think every year and and and it seems to come around every every year very quicker or much quicker than it does probably because I'm getting older but I I add the year on to the number of years practice I've had and I think I'm now into 21 years or something of being an applied practitioner. And I and I would say for about 14 or 15 years of that I dealt with a hell of a lot of people's crap and I'd probably done very little with it. I'd spoke to colleagues about challenging clients and we set up a peer supervision group but there wasn't really too much that we could base stuff on you know where you look at clinical you know and peer supervision is an integral aspect of any practitioner. I think in sport we're massively behind the curve and at what I start to see now which I think is brilliant is that there is a network of stage two trainees who who seem to be providing those things and it it is massive because if you think about it you but but you are dealing with people's problems generally you know whichever approach you take you know that they're talking to you about their challenges and if we're not careful you know we just fill up we fill up very very quickly and we need to get rid of that stuff some you know the self-care um you know the working hours you know when I've been on on tours when I've been to tournaments and and thankfully now I work for for organizations where we have working hours but you know there has been expectations where you get up at seven and you're going to bed at 10. And whilst you're not doing what we might define as structured work you you're still being asked you're still observing you're still sitting in meetings you're still contributing and and you're on as it were and yeah yeah you do that for three weeks you know I defy anybody to function effectively after doing that for three weeks.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

So it's yeah I think that self-care stuff is is is really really key and and people need to to be mindful of that definitely yeah yeah and and and of course the kind of the higher up the traditional career ladder you go the more you're having to to take on and protect people below you in the hierarchy from um one one of the I suppose kind of traditional responsibilities of a leader is to try and kind of spread a sense of calm even in periods that we've just gone through um which means that you're trying to actively hide what you might be thinking and that that needs an outlet. So using other people is is so important. And the the peer supervision it's interesting you bring that up as a a colleague of mine that I'm training with called Hannah Winter who every month I seem to hear she's she's a member of another peer supervision group. She's uh started off her training in the UK that's now based in Canada. I think she's got a training group in Canada one in one or two in the UK um and I think you're right. I think it's a a great way of of being able to kind of share what you're working on but also learn from others.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah yeah for sure and and it's something I think we we we generally do it and I say we you know the guys that I would work with and collaborate with you know we we tend to do it quite informally now but definitely we are aware that that network is there and we can share ideas and share challenging clients or difficult situations that we're dealing with. And I just think it it it is such an integral part of not only self-care but also development as well and you know viewing it as CPD as well investment in yourself. You know some of the things that I've done in recent years where I've probably taken a bit more of a step back and said I need to invest in myself a little bit here for the reasons that you talk about you know if you're if you're leading or if you're supervising how can you manage yourself better and I I think one of the things I often struggled with was this idea that well maybe that's quite selfish to invest in yourself and it's selfish to prioritize those things but it's it's a bit more better now because I I think I'm just trying to you know um I'm being I'm being more comfortable with trying to be the best version of myself but also managing my challenges difficulties and my well being as well I know that you know there are certain things I need to do personally that enable me to function at a level that I'm comfortable with but also as well recognizing that you know there's days where I'm just not going to be at it and feeling comfortable with that as well.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

And I love I love it.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah and I yeah I I just don't have the energy I Jesus I'm sound like a bloody 60 odd or something but the I think the idea that you know I you can't function at 110% every day and I think as I've gone through some experiences probably in the last three years I've realized that it it's it's okay to be an 80 or a 70 or even a 50 at some times you know and feeling comfortable with that and recognizing in my diary the days I need to recover. And that's not I'm I'm conscious that who would watch this and or who would listen to this that's not like oh I'm just gonna put my feet up it it's recognizing it's like if I've had a day of you know maybe where I've travelled a lot or I've you know delivered a workshop or a presentation or something that might be perceived as quite high you know highly stressful it's kind of then looking at what I can do that day or the day after to to aid with recovery. You know, can I take an opportunity to you know go for a walk or you know just spend some time reflecting or working on something that's intrinsically motivating but also quite controllable by me as well that I I've got control over. And sometimes that's I can do that. Sometimes you know there are meetings and there's teaching and there's all sorts of stuff that you have to do. So but I think I'm a lot more mindful of those opportunities um and the influence that they would have and and I think that you know that that probably feeds into how I work with athletes now.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

I think my focus has changed a lot with athletes around how I operate um I'm a big one now asking them around for focusing around the wellbeing type stuff you know sleep routines recovery strategies you know what what are you doing to to do those things well because they're going to influence not only you as the person but you as the athlete yeah I've gone off on one a bit there Pete sorry not at all I think that was that was uh a series of a series of good tangents um one thing in there I think is quite interesting because at the the start of the podcast you said you don't enjoy networking and yet your focus on a lot of these places uh and appreciation of the impact other people have had on your work you've mentioned Chris Harwood Martin Turner um Mark Jones uh Matt Slater all of your PhD students this idea of peer supervision using others at the same time so you don't enjoy networking but you do enjoy people yeah I I do yeah massively yeah and I and I get a lot out of you know I've been I've spent a lot of time with uh Roy White who did the MSc at staffs and Roy worked was in worked in Sony for many many years and uh within HR and and Roy is somebody that you know uh I look up to um he would be a mentor I suppose in many senses and a friend and the one thing I've always observed about Roy he is he's great at getting the right people in the room to solve a problem and I kind of witnessed that from him and have seen him do it.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

But also I've seen the satisfaction and enjoyment that he gets from doing that. And I think probably Roy doesn't always or hasn't always got but probably doesn't seek either the recognition but what what he is comfortable with is is the realization that you know he's he's coordinated this in some way and he's got the right people in and I think I've I've drawn a lot from that I get a hell of a lot of satisfaction where I can put give somebody an opportunity and they thrive in that and they enjoy it and it maybe helps them to do what they want to do. And I think that's probably you know and then they might just say something like oh I appreciate that thanks you know that's probably worth more than most and I I I do get a lot of sense out of those connections. I you know I I love being a part of a team I always have done but I've always struggled with that kind of self-promotion getting yourself out there type thing I just doesn't sit comfortably with me don't tell my wife that because um probably doing myself out of a lot of cash potentially but um but uh but but I do struggle with that because I almost feel like well you know what yeah why would you want yeah it's sort of a confidence thing maybe you know why would you want me to do that? There are probably other people that can do it. But I'm more than happy to influence to get the people that I know to do a job in there and I get a lot of satisfaction out from that. Seeing other people grow I think as well you know I think one of my proudest achievements if you like is is the people that I've supervised that or have come through MSc programs or PhDs and and the excellent things they're doing. I sit back and think well actually if I've had one percent input there you know and then then I'm more than happy you know that's get a real sense out of that nurture and development and yeah yeah it's just again I don't know where I'm going with this P other than I I don't like networking in the the formal sense but I do like getting people together and I enjoy that social interaction of probably people that I'm comfortable with as well. I think that's the thing I'm I'm never great at that first introduction but once I know people you know I think my friends would tell tell me or tell you that it's probably a side that you know they don't always expect.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

There's something kind of intrinsic in the word networking I don't know something that's just in been imbued in it maybe by kind of business books and TVs and movies and and stuff like that just makes it feel quite forced and sycophantic. Yeah. But networking can be quite natural can't it I mean networking is also just speaking to a friend or a friend of a friend if you go to a conference and you see someone that you know and they're talking to someone that you don't know you might just be introduced via by them and that's that's not you coming into it with a uh a sense of I want to get something out of someone that's just you chatting to someone that you know and and and meet maybe meeting someone new.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Yeah yeah no you're right no definitely I can relate to that for sure yeah but but I think you know the the big reflection for me is that getting a sense of enjoyment from you know working with people you know you know and being influenced by those people as well and not professing to be the expert you know expert to some level but working with PhD students that you know the value of those and trainees and QCEP is that I'm learning every day. And selfishly that's why I want to do those things because I'm picking up stuff and they're telling me stuff and I think that's that's a fortunate position to be in in academia or in in in a you know as a practitioner that you everyday's a school guy and that's really valuable.

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_01 41:43

So a lovely start to the season and indeed the two-part episode with Dr. Jamie Barker there. And already we've covered so much ground talking about everything from parenting and homeschooling to theory based practice and networking for the networking of Earth. One thing you wouldn't have known but I was fortunate to be partial to was Jamie's Zoom background which was a room full of Man United collateral shirts, signposters, framed kit and all other kinds of keepsakes. I loved Jamie's den of memorabilia so much I asked whether I could take a screenshot of our Zoom call so I will post a picture of that on Twitter with Jamie's consent and so make sure to check that out. So what did we hear in that first part with Jamie? There was some really nice stuff early on around the ironic benefits of losing work but then breaking the cycle of the nomadic life of a sports psychologist and being able to spend more time with the family. And a nice little soundbite around theory doesn't have to reside in a textbook, it should be something that leads to practical change. But there was one topic I'd like to linger on and that is self-care. Firstly I really enjoyed Jamie's nuanced approach to the wellbeing and work life balance debate. Whilst he admits being not proud of some of his previous work practices, he also reflects that much of it he enjoyed, almost in quote like a hobby. And he also draws an important distinction between work that you voluntarily take on because it's interesting or it's enjoyable or it's intrinsically satisfying versus being forced to work unreasonable hours and breaking the rarely enforced European working time directive. It reminds me of an interesting passage in, and I hope I get this pronunciation right sent mihais seminal book Flow, where the author argues that the associations that have become attached to the word work can often detract from the reality of the work that you might be doing. Specifically he writes when it comes to work people They disregard the quality of the immediate experience and base their motivation instead on the strongly rooted cultural stereotype of what work is supposed to be like. They think it's an imposition, a constraint, an infringement on their freedom, and therefore something to be avoided. Now he goes on to lay down a really interesting provocation about how we then choose to spend our leisure time, once we've inverted commas, escaped from work, arguing that we too easily default to the path of least resistant activities such as television that offer easy and immediate structure. Cheek Sent Mihai posits that, unlike work, free time is unstructured and requires more effort to be shaped into something that can be enjoyed. Hobbies that demand skill, habits that set goals and limits, personal interests, discipline, it all helps make leisure what it's supposed to be. But Jamie also offers variable words of wisdom to those that might see work as intrinsically enjoyable time that can happily bleed into the evenings and weekends. And that is around long-term sustainability and self-maintenance. I really liked his soundbite you can't function at 110% every day, and that I've come to realise it's okay to be at a 70 or an 80, or even at a 50 sometimes. I will even put in the diary days where I might recover. This chimes with discussions I've had with support staff within national sport bodies that have reported blocking in things like sleep, family time, and hobbies with their athletes. And what they've said to me is yes, the value is number one, because doing those things, physical recovery and connecting with loved ones, is good for general well-being, but number two, because it's also intended to have positive performance consequences. As Jamie says, having some time operating at a lower intensity makes it more likely we can sustain 110% when we're required to turn it on. And in terms of a nice little anecdotal reference linked to that, the book Eleven Rings by LA Lakers and Chicago Bulls head coach Phil Jackson is littered with really interesting examples of how he used meditation from Zen Buddhism, not only for himself but for the players in order to facilitate a high-quality off-switch. The scientifically minded of you out there will tell me to beware looking at such successful case studies and extrapolating assumptions to infer that they apply universally. And to you, I would say fair comment. But all in all, I am seeing and reading more and more evidence and literature out there advocating for this quality off time, this quality off switch, this quality rest time. And if you've got any evidence, case studies, or something you've read that feeds into this debate, please feel free to reach out and share. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter, and you can email me if you want as well. Right, so before we end, a quick teaser for the part two of this episode with Jamie. In the second part of our conversation, we dig into the Rio Olympics, Premier League football, the military, and then we look at running themes and patterns across these varied and different types of environments. So make sure to keep an eye out for part two. Right, all that's left to say is thanks again to Jamie for generously giving up his time. You can follow Jamie on Twitter at at Dr Jamie Barker. Thanks again for listening, and until next time, have a good one.