SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello, and welcome back to the Slice of Pi podcast with me, Pete Jackson, where the Pi is the psychologically informed environment, and the mission is to further an understanding of what that looks like in different types of workplaces, be that sport, business, the armed forces, education, the performing arts, or wherever managers are striving to create the optimal conditions for performance and well-being. You may notice that the gaps are starting to widen between podcast episodes, for which I apologize. There are so many great episodes that are queued up, and I can't wait to put them out. However, I've just started an exciting new job, so I'm spending a lot of my time heeding the lessons from the experts on some of these episodes, trying not to take too much on in any given week, reminding myself life is not a rate, keeping time set aside for exercise, for friends and family, and basically trying to find that elusive balance that we're all searching for. And talking of balance, this week's episode with Louise Byrne kicks off with 30 minutes of in-depth discussion on balance, how to achieve it during the challenge of training to be a chartered born exercise psychologist, whether balance is something that happens every day, or whether we need to widen the lens, what portions of time are non-negotiable, such as exercise? How do we reflect on the ways that we're using our time and loads and loads more? If you haven't checked them out, these interlocking topics of striving for something, career progression in a competitive market, balance and self-care are all central topics in my conversations with both Richard Keegan in episode 2 of season 1 and Dr. Jamie Barker from the first episode of season 2, so feel free to check out those conversations as well. In this episode, it's really interesting to see some of these themes play out, with one trainee talking to another trainee about trying to strike this balance. With the other part of Louise's life spent working in the financial services sector, we also have time to talk about how principles of sports psychology might be applied to those working in the city or corporate jobs. And of course, we have time at the end to discuss what a psychologically informed environment looks like as well. Like me, Louise is training towards sports psychology chartership whilst also balancing another career. She was a brilliant guest, and this conversation will be of huge interest to anyone trying to balance multiple jobs or who are training towards something on the side of their main breadwinner. Right, that's enough preamble. It's time to jump into the conversation with Louise Byrne. Louise, how are we?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Very good. How are you, Pete?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Not too bad, thanks. Not too bad. How are you? How are you managing lockdown so far?

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Um, we're still here, surviving. So um, yeah, I think it's very much um up and down each day. I'm like, I'll just wake up and see how the mood is and then try and shift it if I can, or try and harness the positive energies I have that morning. Um, but uh yeah, even speaking to different people, I think it's each day as it comes, and we just have to to keep going as we can. Um try and put ourselves in the best uh position um and try and remain optimistic for the day, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Sound like a sound like a bit of a marathon runner there, just the kind of self-talk during the during the kind of the challenging parts of of uh going out for a run.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Well, definitely, yeah. And I suppose that's definitely from um my own experience and trying to compartmentalize what I the task in front of me, how I can um break it down into more manageable chunks. And I feel like that's definitely from some education somewhere in psychology down the line of trying to take it in chunks. Um, but yeah, it's it's definitely just trying to look at what's ahead, what can I do now, control the controllable, all the techniques that I suppose we would have um spoken to clients about and educated them on just trying to apply them every single day.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Yeah, fair play. I think what there's a I think there's some kind of cheesy Dalai Lama quote I've read on on the internet that said you can't climb a mountain unless you take the first step, something like that. Like what you said there, just chunking things down, focusing on if you're a football player on match of the day, you'd be saying taking it one game as a time uh at a time.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Well, look, thanks very much for for coming on. Like myself, you've got a bit of a dual career thing going on. You you've got a job that you you do in the city, but you're also training to be a sport and exercise psychologist. And so I think your perspectives would be very interesting, particularly at this time. There's a big challenges happening economically, but also in the sport world, there is literally no sport going on at the moment, I think, apart from maybe a couple of leagues in Belarus. People tend to be telling me there's still sport going on going on there. Now, look, I mean, that is a difficult balance. You're you've got a a kind of a job that that pays the bill, so to speak, but then you're also training as a sport and exercise psychologist alongside. What have you kind of learned so far in terms of managing that balance and and the demands that that brings?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah, that was definitely actually something that you and I, when we've met in person, have spoken about just the similarities and the parallels that I suppose we could personally draw. And and I hope you found it too, that the more you're the more experience you're gaining as a psychologist and within the field, the more parallels and the science, I suppose, um, behind how we work and within a business and then within sporting organisations, how they link up. Um, with regards to the balance, I've been really fortunate actually. My company that I work for has been very flexible. Um, I'd worked full-time for them, um, as you say, to like pay the bills during my master's and a couple of years before that. Um, and they've been really supportive, supporting me and trying to help with the journey as much as possible. Trying to get that balance, I suppose, and maybe you know yourself with the two careers and trying to manage everything, even aside from social life, family life, everything. I have a very much it's it's usually a six or seven-day week. Uh with with organizations and clubs, oftentimes you have matches and games and tournaments on the weekends anyway. So our our schedule was always going to be a little bit different. We found actually having like a very structured seven-day week and being able to push through. If I have something big at the end to look forward to in a couple of months' time, that sort of helps the drive. But given the circumstance at the minute, I'll wholeheartedly admit my structure has completely for the first couple of weeks it went out the window. Uh, and I was finding it very, very difficult to sort of get harness on what I was supposed to do, my tasks, because I didn't have a large sort of goal at the end to achieve or even look forward to getting that reward. But the last maybe I think maybe the week and a half, I've I've sort of set myself down and had that discussion in my head of okay, this is um this might be here for a little while, so let's try and make the most of it. Um, for me, really, it's it's it's to do with time management and trying to fit in as much as I can um efficiently because it's very easy to let those hours slip by, I think, especially when you're not on a structured day-to-day or don't have to move for a client or leave to meet another prospective client or just go to another meeting basically. In terms of self-care, though, with the first couple of weeks, because that I did find it, find it very difficult. Um, I just tried to be a little bit easier on myself, tried to remove that pressure. Felt at times I was putting that pressure on myself to be like, okay, you need to still go, you need to go 100 miles an hour, you need to keep up with everyone, and that like judgments. Um, I found it a little bit difficult to deal with. But then I it was when I sort of said, Okay, it's gonna be here for a little while that I realized it's okay not to be productive in, I suppose, using air quotes, um, but also just be okay and mentally check in and make sure that I'm prepared for the next day, that okay, you might have more motivation tomorrow. Do you have everything in place and just feeling okay that you can do that? Um, so yeah, that was over the past, like recently, um, I've more consciously focused on that. Um, because to be honest, within the first year of QSEP, self-care as much as I know within the caregiven field and within psychology, our focus is on mental health. Um, and I've spoken to other psychologists about it, that oftentimes we forget about ourselves. Yeah. And that was very, very true for myself at the start, until maybe I'd taken a break and actually been away from it. Um, did I realise maybe the consequences that could happen if I didn't manage it?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Do you think the fact that we're doing a training route that has psychology in the name? And obviously things like our own self-care and well-being will then come up within that training route. I mean, there's so much literature coming out on it now within things like the sport and exercise psychology review. Do you think we're quite lucky in that respect that we're quite exposed to, let's say, that literature and encouraged to really work on that side of things? Because, you know, maybe I'm just speaking for my own personal journey. In my first 13 years in marketing and advertising, that didn't even register.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

I think I suppose, you know, when you compare it to a session with a client, um, your first few sessions are like about discovery, but also about education and and enabling that um client to be aware, that athlete to be aware of what's out there. So for me, definitely having that awareness and knowing where I can even find or gain more knowledge um has helped drastically, but also knowing that it's completely normal, that you know, if you struggle, it that is absolutely okay. And here is hundreds of papers normalizing the subject and not not making it such a taboo. And I think maybe that's what mainstream media at the minute is doing, like trying to remove that taboo. But I suppose for myself, definitely, since I've been doing this for a number of years, um, and throughout university, speaking about how the thoughts that we have, the emotions that are linked, the reasons why, and why our behaviour is such a way, has just been a completely everyday conversation to me. And to be honest, I would always now rather know that because I feel much more enabled to manage myself, um, knowing all of this. So, yeah, I think it's definitely of benefit.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, thank you for your your openness because I think it is it is really useful for people who listen to this podcast to know that the the same people, the performance psychologists, the sports psychologists, the occupational psychologists that are putting out some fantastic content at the moment with regards to how one can manage mentally through this period that we're going through, those same people also have the same struggles. And, you know, no knowing what those steps are is one thing, but then doing them is another. And I thought it was refreshing to hear there from you that, you know, we still, like everyone else, are gonna have those low periods. And just because we know what those steps are and we make infographics about it, doesn't make it any easier. You still have to do all those things you talked about, look on the bright side of things, chunk down your time, take the you know, one day as it comes.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

It's really funny that you mentioned that because on my desktop, as we record this, I have an article half written about procrastination. And honestly, I have had that on my desktop since December, and I still have not finished it. And it's just so ironic because yes, we have these skills and how to um try and encourage motivation and how to like educate ourselves and what works best for us, harnessing the environment that we're in, and still the article about procrastination is still there. Um, I'm sure as a result of it being there and me avoiding it, I've done many other productive things.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

But one day, hopefully soon, given that we're in lockdown, I will finish it and publish it.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, well, it happens to everyone, right? Yeah. I've just finished reading the book, The Happiness Trap, by Russ Harris and couldn't have been more inspired by that book. It's not only its contents, but also his own humility and openness and reflection as he goes through the book and reflects on times where he's fallen into the happiness traps that he outlines. And towards the end of the book, he talks about how the book that you're reading, he'd basically left in in a half shape and form on his laptop for like six months. And he was doing everything else except write this book. And it was so refreshing to see the product that he'd managed to finally get to in your hands, but also knowing that like the rest of us, he had to go through that that same that same process of not wanting to do it, dragging himself to the computer, chunking down his time, making little goals, living by his values, not giving himself too bad a time if he hadn't written anything that day. And it was yeah, it was nice to to see that from someone that you you look up to, that it happens to everyone.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Okay, but then I'm glad if he has six months, I have another two months before I start to worry about this article.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

I feel like you've taken the wrong message from that. But you you crack on, you you you chill out and watch Tiger King for the next uh next few weeks. Um the other thing that you mentioned in there was was how supportive your employer has been. So what what kind of when you when you say how supportive they've been, what what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 14:50

I suppose for me it's just about being flexible and allowing me. I usually work Thursdays and Fridays, but I've I have always sort of lived by the idea that if you're open and honest, that that should help the situation at some points. I know there are times where it doesn't um work out the way you'd wanted, but in my point, I'd always always been um very honest with my manager at the time that they knew I was doing a master's, um, and she was absolutely incredible to be honest, um, and she was always so supportive and was able to speak to HR and um the company on my behalf regards it, and they knew what my main goal was, but I think because I'd been hardworking, or I'd like to hope so, I had proved my worth that actually it's okay if she goes part-time because on those two days she will still work as if it was full-time. But yeah, the manager that I had, I it was we had such open conversations, and she'd mentioned some of the goals that she had had, um, and she didn't at all make me feel guilty or yeah, I suppose guilty is the right word. Guilty that I had something else in the pipeline that I wanted to achieve something else. And I think sometimes when we're in business and I work in an investments company, that if that's not your sole purpose, then that means you're not loyal to them. And that was never the idea that I had. I always wanted to give 100% while I was there, but I do have something else for the other five days a week that I'm very passionate about that I hope I add value in this area too, but it doesn't mean it takes away from my other two days. And yeah, she that was definitely um a lot to do with my manager at the time, um, just allowing me to move in the direction that I'd wanted and really facilitated um that uh for me. And the manager that I have now as well has been absolutely incredible, and we've had really honest conversations about it, and again, those conversations about other people have goals too that it's okay. Um, so I was really, really grateful and very I I don't like to say the word lucky, but maybe in this instance I was, but just two females that I could look up to and see and feel absolutely okay about having um another career on the go. Um, so yeah, I was that was where the flexibility came from.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Yeah, it's really interesting there about the you mentioned the word guilt.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

And potentially there could have been a situation where you might have had a manager or an organization who had a viewpoint on the world that the employees that work for their company have to, you know, buy into that vision and stress every sinew, blood, sweat, and tear in in promotion of that vision. But you've got you've got a manager here that appreciates that whatever you're doing on the side, in this case, training to be a a chartered psychologist, is going to give you skills and it's going to give you experiences that you can bring back to this job and potentially be even better at it.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Absolutely. And I think it's just even being open to that idea that it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to take away from the other career. Like one doesn't have to be in place of the other. And that was the main thing that I'd sort of wanted to put towards them as well, put forwards for them, um, was that it's not going to impact it. I'm not going to let it um take away. But to be honest, before I'd even said that, that was they had had similar views about goals of their own and different areas of their life. So I yeah, I was really grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Yeah. I mean, there's probably one of the most popular management books written on motivation and employee and team motivation of the last 10 years or so is probably Drive by Stephen Pink. And he uses a lot of the work from self-determination theory, Decky and Ryan. Those three pillars around God, can I remember it? Autonomy, relatedness, connected to others, and competence.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

So am I enjoying the environment and those that I'm connected to? Am I good at what I do? And also do I have a degree of uh self-orientation in terms of what I do? And I think interestingly, we quite often think about autonomy within our own jobs. So being able to sculpt our own roles, have a say in how we do things. But autonomy is not just within those four walls of an organization, it's also the broader autonomy of what you're doing with your life. Do I have the autonomy to leave at 5 p.m. and go home and pick up my kids from school? Do I have the autonomy to freely train myself or upskill myself in another training path like you're doing and have the support of that organization? And it sounds like that kind of autonomy box if we were ticking a kind of self-determination theory checklist that autonomy is well ticked for you in your position.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Yeah, and it comes down to it as well. Like we are individuals, of course, we work for companies or firms, or we might be in a particular organization, and we may have similar values, and that might be an important aspect of the job for us, but it doesn't mean we are the company. We are still we have different personas outside of work and at home, and we can be different, different individuals, and that's absolutely fine. So I think it was maintaining that that yes, I I still will be committed while I'm here, but outside of those nine to five hours, I am another individual, and also I have um my psychology career on the side too. So yeah, it it doesn't have to only be only one of them. We we can have different elements to ourselves as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

We've we've touched quite a bit on self-care already, and you've mentioned you're effectively working between six and seven days a week, which I suppose if you were working with an athlete or a performer and that came out in an intake interview, that might even not necessarily cause alarm bell, but you certainly write it down and you want to dig into that a wee bit more. How is that resolving itself with the idea of a work-life balance?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah, it's uh it is when you say six to seven days and then balance, they don't really um sort of align too well, do they? But I suppose for me, balance actually the timing was never an issue for me. I'm quite a not a busy person, that's not the right word, but um are like being productive with my time or like being efficient. That's not to say that I'm like don't binge on Netflix. Um that's absolutely normal now these days. But I it's it's more to do with my mental, um, my mind. mindset and the mental side of things that if I feel okay I've done six or seven hours today I'm now going to take a couple of hours off and whether that's yoga run just be away from my phone where I live in London is along the river so yeah there's lots of like I can actually get a bit of quiet time for me it's actually never to do with the hours and I suppose when you come across um athletes or clients as well assessing and again part of the discovery session that you have with them assess whether it's actually a positive or negative thing because we are different. So for one person working six days a week might be incredibly stressful but for another that might make them feel efficient and I suppose even from my point of view that just makes me more aware that I need to approach each client as an individual person. It's not one size fits all that we should all work five days nine to five because there are definitely going to be weeks where it's quieter for me but then other weeks where it's absolutely jam-packed but to be honest I enjoy it and it will only be when it becomes a negative aspect to my life that then I say okay this is where I need to take a little bit of step a step back and um assess if I should still keep going this path or what do I need to do to reduce it or alleviate it. But I do consciously check in every week to see okay does the next week ahead look okay do I need to change things around things around and you know yourself what with QSEP a lot of it is writing yourself and alone time and I suppose coming from different degrees as well I'm used to that so it doesn't actually it's not a bad thing for me.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

No I get it my favourite poem which I've adopted for my my father is is that that famous poem If by Ridyard Kipling and and there's a line in there that says if you can fill the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds distance run, it's it's about making the most of your life it's about productivity. It's about doing as much as you can while we're lucky enough to be on this earth. And I think that's a value that a lot of certainly a lot of high performing people have the kind of the work ethic and determination and and productivity.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

And how that resolves or how that balances out with self-care or or wellbeing or this idea of balance as you've mentioned it's an ongoing process right it's something that you you review in an ongoing way and check in with yourself like you said in order to realize whether it's it's in the right balance or not.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

One other thing that I was just reflecting on there was when anecdotally whenever I've experienced people doing a really kind of an intense training programme or have taken on something quite big that has a time limit on it, let's say two to four years for QSEP but it might be doing an MBA. So Leon Lloyd who I spoke to last week has just finished his his MBA dissertation and and he said to me well for the last couple of months writing that dissertation I had to just kick exercise to the curb. Now this is a a guy who played professional rugby and play for England and so kicking exercise to the curb for a wee bit probably wasn't something that ideally fitted with his set of values but he felt he had to do that in order to to get that piece done. And I'm just interested that in this idea of of balance not just in the short term but over the long term and I some sometimes see that with these training programs sometimes we think about balance over a longer period of time or these years in the short term without being incredibly unhappy is slightly a sacrificial lamb a temporary unbalancing towards work maybe at the expense of other things in order to get qualified, experienced and open up doors down the line where we might get that balance back. I don't know whether that resonates with you at all.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yeah it does and that was one thing that I was reflecting on when we were speaking was that although now six to seven days working week is the norm, I'm sure when I look back and I'll I'll just put it down to energetic twenties or late twenties as recently happened that it it I may think back and say wow how did I even do that or maybe like this is always the way I've been I've always had a lot on and I've always enjoyed being productive but there are definitely sacrifices for me however because my hours it is my own timetable and I can be quite flexible running still plays a part I will try and run a number of times during the week even if it's just quick 5K's just get it out there get it done it's just even my butt like my body being moved again I do yoga at least once a week where I live there are different things where I'm say where for me if I don't do them and it has happened during the year um especially where they have gone to the wayside or I've said oh I'll just not schedule those in this week and the following week I have noticed it. So I've had to make sure that they are a priority because I do I do notice it just even um with regards for example trying to get a handle on anxiety or anxious feelings when I run um and it's something that I wrote my dissertation on was that trying to catch your breath and trying to keep a rhythmic state and breath actually can often help with the anxious breathing that can sometimes happen when you have anxious thoughts that if you can learn how to do it while you're tired and when you're doing a long distance run and you're fatigued your mind is tired you want to give up when you can do it in that state of mind in a healthy environment because you're exercising when you're in a not so healthy mindset or a negative headspace if you know how to do it behaviorally and you know the symptoms or the actions that you can do to help reduce that anxiety um that's something that I've I've noticed works for me. So running can't it doesn't ever really go to the wayside I would always try and get a few runs in even if I'm not training for a race or anything in particular but just for my own mental health.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah what does that breathing exercise look for you? What does it look like?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Because everyone's got their own preferred breathing technique how how do you implement that it's um it it's like on a five step basis so I'll hold I'll let a breath in and hold it for a second or basically two steps so it's it wouldn't be a second it'd be two steps and then I'll let it out for the next three steps so as I'm running so it's in like a beat of five and when I am able to get into that rhythm and as I become more tired and maintain that breathing technique and those breaths when it happens then when my heart rate increases or I become anxious outside of exercise if I continue to do that it also triggers that you're you're put back into that calm emotional state while on the run. And so just a transference of different skills there.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

I mean I'm I'm a huge fan of of breathing and I can see why so many sports psychologists and performance psychologists have talked about it. I know Ken Revisa was a a huge advocate of of breathing techniques and work with many high high high level athletes in selling them and it I suppose it's one of the it's one of the most accessible ways for us to do something as you said behaviorally which can affect our own physiology and potentially emotion you know that tinkering between the the sympathetic and the parasympathetic tinkering with the ratio of the outbreath versus the in-breath and what I'm hearing here is even when you're in you know the midst of quite a challenging physiological state you might be 70% of the way through your run knowing that you can still have that under your control allows you to know that you can have some kind of an effect over your experience in that moment. Absolutely yeah cool I think this would be a really good time to well we've we've been talking about wellbeing we've been talking about dual careers we've been talking about how to balance our time why are we all doing this we do well both both of us are are doing this because we have a chartership training program that we're we're on and when I speak to fellow trainees like yourself I don't tend to talk too much about one of our key roles which is the research side of things um I think a lot of us kind of leave that to the the end of the to-do list uh I might be the only person who who actually openly admits that uh podcast form and I hope the the British Psychological society aren't listening. Um but your study um that we talked about briefly before is really really interesting and it's in the kind of the the world of what this podcast is really interest interested in talking about so do you mind giving us a a quick overview of of the research you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

As you mentioned sometimes the key role three can sort of be put to the end and because of the way the submission is done you don't really need to do too much until your final submission except get it ethically approved. I was trying to be ahead of the game and get it ethically approved in the very first year within sort of the first six months and I did that and so what we're looking at is um stress within um sporting organizations and the impact and possibly according to the lit literature that we I've read um the impact it has on wellbeing and performance of the athletes so I'm currently um in the phase of data collection um and I have I I'll tweet about it again as well um I'm just currently uh looking for participants that are involved in sporting organizations over the age of 18 and that aren't currently injured and we're just investigating what it is that impacts um the athlete and how it impacts them so trying to understand and collect all of that data around it and the the purpose of it is creating an intervention plan to try and alleviate this stress and it this was well before the whole coronavirus occurred um we're trying to then help sporting organisations become aware and then also facilitate and provide some tools to alleviate the stress and I think given the current climate this will be quite a significant thing that may actually start to be negatively impacted possibly in the next season or the next year that athletes will be facing. So it's just very coincidental that it occurred at this time. So that's why I'm I'm trying to get as many participants now as possible involved in that because we it is something that is very important and something that even myself personally and we've speak spoken about it, the parallels between the organisations and so we'll see what type of research afterwards that that might influence and my own career as well.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Yeah it's fascinating isn't it the the timing with which you decide to do research can have a massive impact on what actually that output or those results are if you've if you've done these surveys six months ago you're probably going to get a very very different pattern of results to as you say doing it over this period. It's almost like your your study could be could become a coronavirus um stressor um study I can imagine it's going to come out so so clearly and so so strongly if given what's happening at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Yeah I think that's why it's important to try and get as many responses as possible now. Yeah because you're right I suppose this hasn't happened before um to such a worldwide extent but the environment that we're in and um the organization that we might be associated with how that can impact how we feel about our sport and the performance that we give the results may be very very different than they had been maybe last year. And hopefully that will provide us a little bit more insight and maybe some stronger data about how we can even alleviate it in possibly more positive climates. So um yeah that's our aim at the minute.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Well I mean fascinating area of study so organizational stresses within sport organizations.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

What in terms of the literature that's underpinning your study what are the common organizational stresses that we tend to see in sport?

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Within the previous literature it can be say for example um teamwork collaboration um it can even be to as simple as like the logistics of how do I get to the away match we can have um worry and anxiety around that the different departments I have a problem but who do I go to there seems to be different levels again but then it can be very individualistic so around the own athlete's motivation or their um their drive but yeah a lot of it as well is to do with collaboration having that team goal again how does it impact an individual that maybe that team goal doesn't align so well with their own values um but if it does then how is that harnessed towards that goal so they're sort of the common ones that have come up it's a really interesting one that that team versus individual goal.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah the couple of companies we've we've worked with in the last six to 12 months that are they must be going through such a tough time now because they're retail clients but they have in a lot of retail you have people on the floor so if you go into John Lewis you've got lots of people trying to help but also trying to sell and in the world that we're living in now many people will go into a shop have a little look around but they'll also then look to see whether they can get it cheaper online. It's just very readily accessible they can look on the John Lewis website and see if it's cheap online. And in that scenario there is a clash between goals. So the the organization which employs the person on the shop floor wants to make that sale and if the easiest way of making that sale is online then they would want that person to make it online but the person selling on the shop floor is only remunerated if they make the sale in the physical location. So you then have a clash between the organisational goal and the personal goal. And there's a a technological solution for that but it's it's very difficult to implement. And you see it in organizations you see it in in sport and particularly dependent on the type of team so if you take cricket for example a lot of cricketers will will tell you it's a it's a team sport but it's it's propelled by individuals. And because there's such a statistical pressure in cricket as well in terms of batting averages bowling averages there's always that kind of overhanging pre-occupation maybe not pre-occupation either a fixation or a prioritization of making sure that your statistics look good.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah they're definitely that can make um make it a little bit more difficult um when they don't align fully and that is something where if we try and investigate that further we will start and begin to know in more depth how we can help that. And I suppose that's the purpose of much research as well is trying to alleviate any problems that we see.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

But yeah you're right it it can it can have a very significant impact on that individual then especially when you look at the study that you're doing within the sport domain but then you reflect on the work that you do in the city during your your kind of let's call it city work.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Yeah. Does that do you end up kind of reflecting quite a lot on what you're studying within sport organizations but then how that transfers back to what you're doing in your desk job yeah so in particular with regards the um study that I'm doing as I mentioned the different elements like the teamwork and collaboration and I suppose when you see one set company or a team goal the different departments when you're working within the city and you have those as important elements of your life you start to realize and I suppose I've started to realize that athletes have a similar experience but how it can be transferred that when you're a city worker if you see things that work for athletes or you see things that work for a sporting organization it's okay to be more open to those suggestions and those techniques. So we can see the benefits of mental performance and stamina if you're a recreational exerciser you can apply those within your own life but within your own job if there are particular techniques that you have been drawn to it is absolutely okay to seek out help or seek people like yourself and myself trying to see how they can work for you I suppose just without going into too much too many specifics increasing our self-awareness and understanding ourselves better and how we work definitely as a trainee has helped me but I try and encourage that for my own clients also and those that do work in the city too that I work with that if we can increase that self-awareness we can also it then leads to an increase of your own capability knowing what works for you knowing what values that you may not have noticed previously or acknowledged how they actually influence your behavior so once we gain that self-awareness we can actually see what behaviours we can use to help yourself then and how you can move forward so I think the main point that I suppose city workers can learn from athletes is it's okay to be open to these techniques. There was a point where the mental side of sport wasn't wasn't the done thing um essentially and we've seen the benefits of it that now we can actually move it whether it's to yourself as a recreational exerciser or within your performance within your work that these techniques have worked um so let's see if we can sort of apply them to a business perspective also. Have you had any people come through your practice that are not athletes but have come from a different environment yeah so I have a number of clients that are within finance and a couple of different industries again where the translation I suppose we have spoken about it as well with the performance side of things that doesn't actually just relate to sport for example a number of the common things that come up within sports confidence motivation coming back from setbacks uh injury but this can also be illness so if a person has been off work or on leave for quite a number of months how that impacts them conversations are still very similar and translate quite well in my experience at least I have found and I suppose that's why getting more research around the organization as well will feed back into this and it's all connected that if we can understand what works within the organization we can see what works for an individual also. But yeah I I do have a number of clients that aren't sport related as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Interesting um I wouldn't mind finishing by asking you about human engineering and just because I'm I'm also I'm I'm going on this this journey like yourself to to understand more about the about organizational psychology how that applies in sport and how that applies in in other places and in Wagstaff's book about the organizational psychology of sport I thought it was really interesting in the introduction the split of that into three areas so the organizational psychology and then part two personnel psychology which might be the HR department or talent identification in a club so identifying the right person with the cult potential cultural fit and then managing them through that journey performance reviews etc and then this last bit which is human engineering and when I read the title I thought it was some kind of scary Orwellian kind of manipulation tactic. But when you dig into it the the content's really interesting it's about workspaces I think in the the city you can see a lot more gyms on site healthy food little bowls of nuts. I I know in some consultancies they have a little buzzer that you can set off near your computer which reminds you to go for a walk every 45 minutes and just kind of have a breather showers ride to work schemes etc etc it's a huge part of the um organizational psychology element in the city isn't it yeah and you're right I suppose even when you walk around and you see the gyms like in the basement of

SPEAKER_01 44:00

The building or advertising for very near or close by. It's it's all about seeing what works for the individuals and listening to that research and literature. To if it works, let's try it and let's actually use it because this research isn't just for the sake of doing it, it's to try and foster an effective, a positive, productive environment for not just to get productive employees, it's actually to help them as individuals as well. And I think when a company, a company genuinely means that, and it's not just to try and get higher productivity rates, um, but that they actually care and understand what their employees' well-being needs, uh, that's when you see the most positive results, and actually that that employee then will add greater value because they actually want to, because they can see that it is genuine care that they're giving towards them. So, yeah, it I think once we start to realize that these steps can have a lot of benefits for both sides and start to use them a little bit more, we'll see great results, not just on an employee point of view, but on an individual. And that's one thing I found when I've worked with different clients that when they learn a skill or a technique that's been incredibly effective for them. I've had numerous people then say to me, Oh, actually, I I told my husband about this or I told my friend about it. Um, and maybe I didn't explain it 100% the way you did to me. But I just, you know, I hope you don't mind. I shared that with them. And of course, I would rather the message be continued to spread and the information and knowledge be put out there. So yeah, I think it's a it's a very positive step forward that we aren't robots on a working line, that we can't, we are actually individuals, also.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

I suppose you're never gonna be able to stop that if you've had such a good impact with a a client and they felt that, and they also have loved ones, they're gonna naturally want to share that information, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Right. So we are coming towards the home stretch, just finally, because I'm asking everyone this this question, I'm really enjoying the different perspectives and different angles that come back. What does a psychologically informed environment mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Staying on the lines, I suppose, of the organizational side of things, and given the conversation that we've just had, for me, it's understanding to a greater extent what works for a team or a company that you work in or run, and knowing the opportunity that may come about from implementing these psychological techniques. That's taking that information and using the positive elements that work, trying to reduce the negative, being more informed, and as I've said, it's trying to get that information from individuals. For example, with within companies, asking employees and individuals what works for those, gathering that information doing that discovery session, that's where we become informed about the environment, what works for them, do they have suggestions? And looking at it as an overview and seeing what psychological elements are coming into play here. So, not just asking, oh, do you want more fruit days or different things like that?

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Always more fruit days.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Well, I love fruit, so I'm all for that. But is it like okay, maybe hosting a coffee morning so we can connect? It's that connectedness and that supportiveness that harnesses that growth and development and greater understanding we have of one another. So, although it might just seem like a coffee morning, see what the reasons behind this are. It's maybe because people felt isolated. And I think you'll probably find now that people may be, but maybe it's to try and encourage a collectiveness. Maybe the employees don't know what the collective goal of the company is. So spreading that message in person in conversations, not just by a weekly email. I think that's where the cycling psychologically informed environment comes into play. And if we can actually see what information would work, and then trying to implement it again, not just from like behaviors, but seeing um from the mental aspect how we can encourage that growth and that openness as well, as we touched on.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Brilliant. I mean, there's load loads in there. I've almost got a pad full of notes on that. If I was to summarize, we've we've got a an appreciation, a contextual appreciation for what works for a particular company, an intent to not only seek out opportunities to try and improve that environment, but also to reduce anything there that might be negative. And that might be helped by getting rich information from the employees to understand what's going on. And I suppose the output ideally that you mentioned there is an environment where people feel connected and free enough to share with others, and also an environment where they feel like they can grow and develop.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Great. Oh, I'm glad I got that right. Uh um, well, look, thanks very much, Louise, again for for joining and for giving up your time today. It's hugely appreciated. If if people were to uh want to find out more about what you're doing, where would they find you online?

SPEAKER_01 49:45

You can um find me on Twitter. I'm under um LB Perform Psych. And I have an Instagram page as well, LB Performance Psych. Yeah, normal LinkedIn just under my name. And you can always drop me an email at any point. It's L Burn, so it's B Y R N E SportSyc at gmail.com. And as I mentioned earlier, I'll tweet the survey link as well for the organizational stressors within sporting organizations as well. It'd be really appreciated because this is definitely an area that's going to need some further research, it seems.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Great. And I'll I'll put that link in the description uh when the podcast goes out as well. So look, thank you very much again, Louise. Best of luck with everything in both of your worlds, and uh we'll we'll catch you soon, I hope.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Definitely. Thanks so much, Pete, for the opportunity as

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_01 50:38

well.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

If you're still listening, thanks for sharing another slice of pie with me. Before I reflect on some of the themes from the episode, just a quick redaction. At one point in the episode I misreference a quote about climbing mountains to the Dalai Lama. The quote I was actually thinking of was one may walk over the highest mountain one step at a time, which of course was by American retail magnet and forefather of advertising John Wanamaker. Right, so that's out the way. The first thing I want to dwell on from the episode was Louise's insight around being okay with not being productive. It reminded me of REBT's Albert Ellis and his so-called masturbation trap, where our thoughts and beliefs circulate around inflexible words such as I must or I have. So I must be productive, I have to be productive or something is going to happen. This language enforces very strict rules and strict boundaries, and then when we inevitably fall short of these, because we are human after all, it can cause psychological unrest. And I take what Louise is saying here as yes, we would ideally like to be productive, but if it doesn't happen, that is not an invitation to beat ourselves up about it. Instead, we might show some self-compassion and think about the way forward. So as Louise says, okay, we might have some more motivation tomorrow. What are the things that we need to do to put in place for that? The other part I've been reflecting on is this idea of chunking. So Louise mentioned it as a strategy for dealing with the high workload. And there's some really interesting literature around this in the workplace. For example, a paper in the journal Frontiers and Psychology in 2016 found that time chunking was an effective tool for the digitally enabled workplace. The same paper references some of Earl Miller from MIT's work on the cost of task switching, which seems to be the enemy of chunking and productivity, and this is when we constantly switch tasks. And it appears that it takes that cognitive effort and energy to reorient every time we do this, every time we switch these tasks. So Miller recommends combining your chunks of time with removing possible distractions such as putting your phone on flight mode, switching off emails. You get the gist. So some nice themes to reflect on there around the ambition of productivity and achieving that mystical balance. That's it from me this week. Thanks again for listening, and until next time, have a good one.