SPEAKER_02 0:10

Hello and happy start of the four-day week if you've just been celebrating a bank holiday in the UK or Memorial Day in the United States. Welcome to another episode in the increasingly sporadic but determinedly still going second season of Slides of Pi. Whether Pie is the psychologically informed environment and the mission is to try and understand what that looks like whether it's a sport, business, public sector, in the cauldron of primary league football or the high performance reality of top flat rugby. In today's episode we speak to someone who has worked and is currently working in both of these environments. Joe Dixon is a fellow graduate of the NSC School and Excellent Psychology Masters at Staffordshire University and now performance psychologist at Stoke City Football Club and Bath Rugby. Joe had a career in occupational psychology before he pivoted into school, working in HR and as a consultant, taking him as far away as Western Australia and the buzzing industry circulating around natural resources. As we'll hear in the interview, the call came one day to pack up the Australian life and move back to the UK to enter the world of professional football. The conversation with Joe is a great insight into elite environments, and despite being a bit iffy on the audio side of things, it is definitely worth sticking with it. As always, we'll shoot straight into the conversation and then re-emerge at the end for a full-time reflection. So let's get into it with Joe Dixon. Joe, how are we? Well, Pete, yes, good. How are you? Very well. How's your experience of lockdown been?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

It's been, I I think most people would probably answer in this way, a fairly unique experience. Um it's been busy in the sense of still carried on working as well. Um, but but interesting, I mean, in the spirit of openness, uh, I I I personally went through a a bereavement at the start of lockdown and not not COVID-related at all, but it's sort of been intertwined with that period of being locked down and and going through that process of of grief whilst the world's going to part on the outside was was absolutely weird and and yeah, strange in itself. But yeah, I I found it's uh both challenging um and and some great learning experiences along the way.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Well, I'm I'm I'm sorry to hear that. And I suppose the the the weirdness of of lockdown and then having a a bereavement, it's I suppose one of those periods where just it just feels like things are just happening, lots of things happening outside of your control.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah, it does. And and uh for for for myself, it was does this is it actually put the rest of things into context and yeah, you are you you're sort of reflecting on things and going, actually, am I am I making the the uh the most out of of this or or or dealing with it in a better way because I've had that time and I'm not actually out in the real world? Uh it's it's been yeah, quite quite quite interesting. But yeah, I think there's uh you you read a lot about the the post-traumatic growth literature and and things, and you certainly feel that there's been some some experiences of positive to come out of it. So but yeah, sorry to drop a interesting or a tough one on you straight away. That's uh that's quite an intro, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Yeah, the post-traumatic growth stuff is quite quite interesting. Uh I think I've mentioned it on the podcast before, as in a good book by uh a kind of activist author called Naomi Klein called The Shock Doctrine, who talked about how really amazing changes are possible in the wake of quite devastating impacts or devastating events. And she notes things like the NHS, for example. So banding together as a society to create things like social housing and the NHS was only really possible after that enormous shock of the world war, because, like you say, you suddenly get this big picture and you go, Well, what's important? What do we actually want? How do we want to structure our societies? How do we want to live live our lives on an individual level? Um, and I suppose those kind of shocks you've just talked about are good examples of that, giving you that kind of bird bird's eye view, that big picture about life and thinking about those bigger questions, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

It is, and and speaking to athletes, coaches throughout this period, I think a lot of them have gone through a reflective period about what's important and where they're going looking forward, even at an organizational level, seeing that a little bit in terms of of teams and and organisations reflecting on their practice and on what what is what is effective for them and what's beneficial for them, not only as an organization for their people. So yeah, I think through all this, I definitely glass half four about the potential changes that we're going to see moving forward.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Can you reveal anything on your kind of individual level, any changes that you've decided to make, or or is it more about kind of reinforcing values or beliefs that you'd already had and just going, actually, that that's really important to me?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

It's personally, it's probably a common one that a lot of people have had that that actually the time they're spending on just general self-care and and connecting with the things that perhaps they'd they'd lost touch with in that sort of race of general life and and simple things like I'd I'd live um in a nice little town in in Staffordshire and been there well nearly four or five years now. And I've never really explored the any of the local countryside and just getting out and walking and being outside and and and uh having a conversation, just not about things like work with my wife and and yeah, those sort of things which you yeah, you don't appreciate how important they are and and help you go back into that workspace with freshness and and enthusiasm to go again.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah, that's really interesting. That exploring what's on your doorstep, because of the constraint of let's say you can't necessarily kind of fly around Europe that much anymore. There's a lot of people going, okay, well, what's on my doorstep and what can I explore? And uh through lockdown, myself and my wife were doing a walk from where we live in Wandsworth down to Fulham, and we discovered this little portion of the Thames path that we'd never gone along before, and it was a little bit hidden, and so no one was using it. And so we found ourselves every time we're going for a walk, having a little five-minute period down the Thames where it was it was just us on what would normally be a really busy towpath, and just having this lovely little break from the busyness of London, this little kind of oasis of five minutes just walking along the towpath by the Thames on our own. And I suppose we only would have discovered that because of the constraints of not being able to go other places.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

You you can't obviously see me nodding along, but uh yeah, it absolutely resonates because uh I'd I we we'd go out on walks and I'd say to my wife, I'd not I've not noticed that building before, I've not seen that before, and and I've perhaps driven past that piece of road a hundred times, but yeah, just just actually taking that time to notice your surroundings, which yeah, again, I'd sort of lost touch with for certainly a while.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Well, in the spirit of reflection and and looking at things in a new light, let's let's have a look at your journey up until this point. So obviously, now you are involved in a professional sport psychology capacity at at Bath, Rugby, and and Stoke. How did you get to this point? Tell us tell us the the journey, give us a hitchhike through the journey to where you are now.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah, I I guess I'd generally start by saying it was not not the traditional route, but having recently read um David Epstein's recent book on range. Yeah, I like how a lot of it's quite common for people to say, Oh, I've got uh my route's not the traditional one, and actually quite a lot of people say that in terms of getting so uh I'll say it anyway, yeah. Not not necessarily a traditional way into sports psychology, but uh yeah, I I I started back um my psychology journey started back at A-level where it I took the A-level in in psychology because it was just sounded interesting, different, and from that uh it grew into a passion and and I I went off to university to study broad psychology. Um, but but the sport thread has always sort of been weaved in into that. So I I took a um portion of my degree was sports studies as well. I played sports um growing up and went off to university, um went off and did my coaching badges um during university, so I could go out to to America in my summers and and just coach football on the camps out there. So studied psychology, coaching, it sort of intertwined. Um back then, probably at the start of uh first few years of this century, um there weren't as many sports psychology postgraduate courses as as there are now, and and I was sort of at a crossroads of what to do. Um and I I ended up going down the business route because that that appealed, it was interesting. So did a master's in occupational psychology and and ended up working um as an occupational psychologist qualified um for uh for a number of years. So uh that would fascinate the role. Um it allowed me to travel globally to different commercial environments, work with leaders, teams, and uh it wasn't until uh 2010 where the the passion for sport was still burning bright in me. So I thought, right, I'd go and upskill in this and did a qualification. Um, it was a distance learning masters, which I believe you're familiar with yourself.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Um before you go on to talk about the distance learning masters for even people who are psychologists themselves, like sports psychologists who may not kind of know what an occupational psychologist does, what did what would that role have looked like for you?

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, so I guess it's probably worth mentioning that I before going into it, I got some experience in human resources as well. So that that was in a a manufacturing organization. Um, so I found myself uh on a on a tractor plant in Essex with is as a HR advisor, which yeah, fascinating itself. Um, but but again, but it it it's it's a broad, that was a broad role involving um people development, um individual um training. Uh again, yeah, it was sort of you'd get involved in um legal bits and pieces, um, and and um management support, uh, and and that is traditionally a lead into an occupational psychology role has been seen as. Um so I I off the back of that went into a consultancy space. So back to your original question, what what did that involve? It would be uh a large portion of it was leadership assessment and development, it would be um supporting them with their their recruitment needs, it would be um you could be delivering courses on a on a range of things to support um organizational performance or well-being. So give an example, we'd go in and and work with uh an organization on how their leaders um develop strategic thinking, for example. So uh born out of and and similar in in your psychological what sports psychologists would be familiar with, you'd you'd go into organization a lot of times and do a needs analysis um and and formulation and and then look to do a suitable intervention to to meet their needs. And uh yeah, uh great experience. I mean, I was sort of early to mid-20s engaging with uh leaders who were looking after up to hundreds of individuals, um, massive budgets. Um, it was such uh uh I was pretty green and uh you know look looked quite young going into those spaces. So I I I always reflect reflect back and think, God, that these leaders they must have looked at me and go, well, what's this uh young chap gonna gonna teach me or or help me with at the time? But I I think it helped in terms of just abilities to go in, build rapport, build relationships, and and those skills have stayed with me. Um and and I've held sort of in uh absolutely high importance going in similar work with coaches and athletes.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

Do you look back on the occupational psychology side of things and see an absolute smorgasbord of transferable pieces to what you do now?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, uh definitely. Uh even in uh when I transitioned from um business to a full-time role in sport, it became pretty obvious pretty early on that even things like the the way a systemic level that you could support um uh uh at the time I was going into a um football academy, and in terms of the way they review performance in the what in the conversations that they're having in terms of of the talent pathways. So yeah, uh it was at the time I was thinking, oh, I'm I'm coming to sport potentially a bit late, or I should have done this earlier, but hindsight it actually probably for me was the best thing. And yeah, I came into sport. I'd always done bits in sport, but I came into my first full-time role in sport with this transferable experience, which which has very much helped me on the way.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Okay, so fast forward another couple of years, you've had your experience in business and occupational psychology, and then you you do the the transition, the big transition. So that started with the masters.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yeah, at the time I was I was actually out in Australia working um in uh originally my my consultancy experience was more white-collar organizations, but but uh had the opportunity to go out and uh on the west coast of Australia um and work as an occupational psychologist for a consultancy that was supporting more blue-collar industries. So um change of of environment, certainly. Um, instead of uh nice air-conditioned offices, I was uh found myself in the uh yeah, the middle of uh I guess these desolate outback areas of Australia.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Um Western Australia, you'd be kind of in the the mining or the kind of natural resources, minerals area where you could the Pilbara region as it as it's known, and and yeah, the uh the fly in, fly out works.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

So based in in the city, but you'd you'd fly up on sites um and uh work with leaders of of various teams out there on these sites. Um and and yeah, absolutely fascinated, loved it. It was uh and probably closer to maybe a sporting environment in the in in the sense of things like the the camaraderie and and the close quarters that that that these workers lived in. And uh yeah, people say well it could be challenging getting it up in front of various sports teams and and delivering sports psychology, but I think I guess my counter to that is if you can you can get up in front of uh some hard-living mining workers and and deliver, of course. Psychological safety, I think it puts you in good stead because uh you've got to be a bit thick thick skinned with the uh yeah, the the the jokes and and the banter that they throw at you.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, God. I mean, um I I lived in Australia and as a a POM, POM in verticomers, you have to uh you have to build up a good uh ability to give and take the banter, uh shall we say. Also, some some probably some quite interesting similarities to a kind of a military context, I imagine, out there on the the West Coast, people kind of coming in and doing tours of duty, just kind of anecdotally. Anyone I've known that has worked in that kind of mining industry, people tend to want to do it in bursts, get in, make a good level of money, and then kind of get out. I suppose there's probably quite a lot of transitioning of workforce, people coming in and out, and and therefore, from a kind of a psychology perspective, supporting that environment, there's some interesting challenges there in terms of a constant turnover of people.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yes, spot on. And it is exactly that people would look to, I mean, uh go in and and make good money, make hay while the sun shines, and and and then yeah, absolutely transition back out, but but tough at the same time. You uh these guys were on on camp, as it's called, for for weeks on end, and a missing family, and and certainly many psychological needs, well-being needs for these guys, and and yeah, uh from what I saw, there was a good level of support. I think you know uh uh probably at times there was still call for freedom more. Um that wasn't necessarily the the space that we were in, in in that, but you could certainly these guys would raise concerns and and as the challenges you'd expect to be in in those tough environments for long periods and and tough, tough what work that they were doing.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Used tough about five times there, I think, in in the last minute. Was that a kind of the an overriding impression of that that that time, that's that environment?

SPEAKER_00 17:40

I think for me, they as workers you you came away with an air of respect because of the heat demands on them. You'd they'd be working out there, these guys in 40 degree heat, and they'd be getting up at three, four in the morning to to work at times where it wasn't you know a peak, you know, peak sun and peak heat out there, they would uh uh have um and and you imagine if you talk about athletes trying to maintain levels of of focus and and concentration, it absolutely applied to these guys where they work with serious machinery, which pose a threat to everyone's safety. So and yeah, I I had nothing but but you know absolute respect and and admiration for what they and and you'd speak to a lot of them and and the majority would be it was you know to fund the life for the for their families and and yeah, they they were well aware, you know, they're getting compensated and and you know able to live the various lifestyles from it, but yeah, the the sacrifices and and again sort of make the link back to sport. There's certainly many sacrifices that elite athletes make in order to you know perform and deliver and and be where they are.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Okay, well let's let's continue, let's try and wrestle our our journey back to sport now. So, was it did you do the masters where you're out in Australia or did you go out to Australia after the masters?

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yeah, so it was a distance learning masters through Staffordshire University. So that was done whilst I was out in Australia. So again, in my own sort of personal time when I was up on sites and and had spare time, I'd I'd be yeah, delving into the books and uh yeah, doing doing the various assignments. So um first experience, I mean, again, we're talking eight, nine years ago. So I think it was one of the first sort of couple of iterations of that course. But I from what I know it's gone from strength to strength. And uh yeah, really interesting, great, great lecturers, great um great modules, and uh give me a good grounding as well, whilst I was uh yeah, sort of preparing. But but at that point, I I had it wasn't with and necessarily a view to go straight into a full-time sports role, it was more yeah, a passion that I that I wanted to gain more more sort of uh I guess academic understanding.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

What happened next? How did how did you I we know you're not in Australia now, so what what happened, what brought you back?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah, I'm not sure my wife will will ever forgive me for transitioning back from uh from sunny Australia to to the UK, but uh that's a different story perhaps.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

But no, I Joe's Joe's wife, if you're listening now, then just just turn off for a few minutes.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, this is it. I'll uh but no, I I uh yeah, I I put in I basically saw that the staffs were offering an opportunity to conduct a PhD within professional football. So uh that piqued an interest and get had the the the conversation um with my wife about yeah, looking at this as an opportunity to go and and perhaps apply some of this stuff that I've been studying over and and uh learning in a business context in the last few years in into sports. So um yeah, put it put in an application to to come back to to England uh at Stoke and uh conduct a BH PhD whilst working full-time in their academy setting.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Great, and keep talking. How did what what progressed from from there? What was your your initial experience landing into Stoke? Did you still feel like that that kind of young, young lad that um people were were kind of looking at and going, how can he help, like in the early days of occupation, or had had you kind of grown from there? Was there a bit more bit more confidence?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Yeah, probably, probably a bit more weathered by then. The uh the Australian sun had done its damage, but no, I I I did the um interview over Skype from from Perth and yeah, got got invited to yeah, was was successful in that an opportunity to come back and and yeah, um begin this this new uh role and an opportunity in in professional sports. So initial impressions. Um I I think going in it was it was it was fun. Everyone made me feel welcome. It was the first full-time psychologist they'd had in the building. I think previously they'd they'd drawn on the the university for uh workshops and and and various support but not in a full-time mode. So I was given a pretty blank slate to to develop and create create a program. My initial focus was I think mention this this word is relationships, building some strong relationships with staff, the coaches, and yeah, and and look to grow from there and and and establish what what were the various needs of of the academy at that time?

SPEAKER_02 22:26

You mentioned relations relationships there. How did you know that that was a key thing to develop going in? Because a lot of sports psychologists I talk to say that's something that they've kind of they learned over their career. So how how was that a big focus for you? Had someone told you that you know heads up that's a really good thing to do or is that just something instinctively that you'd found from your your other experiences in the working world?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

I think it's one of the things that having gone into into this environment with 10 years experience in in different workplaces I think I think I picked up along the way certainly in in occupational psychologies that as a consultant you're you meet people regularly that you've never met before and and you've got that quick window to engage with them and uh you know make a connection and those I found it's it's been important in order to deliver on on what you're required to do moving forward. So and well aware well I came in I guess with an expectation of not sure how receptive or open to to sports psychology in general with the individuals would be so best place to start is absolutely finding out about them and and understanding what potential needs and where I could support. And I think the best way of doing that is by yeah finding out about them and and engaging and and yeah speaking to them.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

I suppose you say speaking to them that could be a a kind of a formal I've booked in a meeting with you but in the with the realities of could be a football club could be a business could be a school I suppose a lot of those chats happen kind of in between those moments the kind of in-between times the cafeteria the inconsequential chat on the side of the pitch exactly that yeah and and if you're in the vicinity it might be a coach calling you over what do you think of this and and it's it's it's those things where and again because going in there wasn't a formal time to to have a meeting with Joe or speak to Joe it was just right okay being present being visible and sometimes those are the the best times where you can pick up a true understanding of what's required.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

That that's not easy I know for for different sports psychologists or psychologists in general working in different ways different formats they might not have that luxury I think you know if you're going in for a day or two which at the moment that that is me rather than originally I was in in a space full time where yeah that those informal you get you get a bit more opportunity to to to have those informal chats.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

And so so for people who are kind of wondering what life is like working within a a professional football club as a psychologist with with most people that come on the show we you know we try and talk in in a number of let's say a in a a general enough way that um we can get into some interesting areas without obviously stepping on the kind of sensitivities of of talking about a particular club. But if we were drawing an imaginary pie chart let's say of Joe working in professional football um at Stoke and all of those segments of different percentages what what are you spending your time doing?

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah so the role has changed from being fully academy to to doing bits um at first team level to now doing two days a week so if we if we're talking now going from again that immersed space to to two days in in the environment it's uh if you look at is the the the adage there's no typical day which uh again I probably uh probably agree with as well but but there's a large proportion you'd speak with staff coaches um you'd be engaging with players individually there would be uh involved in in meetings uh so all those things really uh map out to it's it's going at an individual at a team at and and more broadly at an organizational level so uh again sitting on uh a meetings that that discuss the the broader organizational workings that you've you find yourself in those so I I still got the opportunity to use the those occupational psychology skills as well so um I think the priorities on an academy space at the minute is is working a bit more through coaches which we've kind of had to do because of of less time in this for me in in in that environment so whereas more previously you might be more player facing whether that's delivering a session more one-to-one work now you're looking at actually yeah empowering upskilling supporting coaches staff in how they impact their players from a psychological perspective whether that's on the training field whether it's through their um meetings that they deliver so I think my practice has has definitely evolved during during that seven year period let's talk about that coach relationship because that's a that's an important one and that's an interesting one if you spot something that you think oh I I know I know from my knowledge base that that could be done in a more helpful way how how do you go about trying to change that I I think for me going back to that that that R word relationships it probably depends on on the relationship you've built with a coach already so knowing how feedback observations land some you know you you can go straight in and go look this is what I've seen what do you think I I again I'm always mindful of you've got that corner with your lens the psychological lens and you can jump on something quite quickly but there are many other specialists who will be looking at it from different perspectives so for me it will be very much query question what do you think give me some some understanding of your interpretation of these these things just and and that's come for experience you can dive in and go look I've seen this certain reaction and actually these are my thoughts and and there actually is a tactical reason for what's going on there and and yeah see see see you picking up so how do I do it I think again timing as well if it's in the midst of a training session or or or a match then some coaches might be quite happy for you to just sort of pull them and and just a word in their ear this is what I've noticed others yeah you'd you'd look and go perhaps in a more of a formal debrief after so yeah not a one size fits all but yeah sensitivity to to the individual what you've seen all those all those factors come in at when I'm out there in an observational capacity.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

I've just written down a a phrase there that I always used to um always used to hear actually from other managers that I've worked with which was pick your battles and I've just I've just drawn a little kind of spider map around that and what you were talking about there was you know the relationship might give you an indicator about whether you can approach that or or not if you've built up a really good relationship maybe you can be a bit more direct. There's a timing if we're if we're picking that battle in a group setting you then bring in the kind of the group dynamic element as well there's potential kind of ego or embarrassment being questioned in front of other people um and then the way you do it as well that kind of the emotional intelligence whether you come in kind of more from a a statement perspective or whether it's a a questioning perspective you there's a kind of a cocktail of different things there that are going on it sounds like that allow you to try and address the right thing at the right time.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Yeah and don't get me wrong if if if I think it's critical then then and that might require a difficult conversation then then so be it. And that that has you know otherwise you you you go home in the car and you end up reflecting and and you're going well I should have I wished I'd and that's not always a nice place to be either so sometimes it you yeah it that that's required. But again that my experiences and this perhaps goes back to that initial trepidation around how how receptive coaches I've I've found them nothing but but on the whole really open really um hungry for development in sports psychology and and that area of performance to the point where you know coaches will be seeking out that stuff and and proactively going what do you think what have you seen and you know hungry for it because yeah uh a lot maybe haven't had that area of of feedback before so yeah it's yeah generally on that on hold for me that that whole that whole piece of of feedback and and delivering those those performance conversations with coaches a bit have been great.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

I suppose what helps that another thing you mentioned was just being in the vicinity being present being visible that that that visibility I suppose helps you just from a kind of an assumptions perspective people assume right he's integrated he's he's one of us he's part of the team he seems to be everywhere where we are opposed to kind of hidden away in your little office where you you come out and you say some psychology things every now and then yeah and and I people I'm sure do that in organizations and do it very well there's there's the debate around do you wear the club colours the club kit the training kit and and I've gone down the route where I have done I've been I've been given kit and and I'm sure that has its benefits it might have some some you know challenges I I'm sure it does people again might want to engage in one-to-one conversation with someone completely not involved with the club and you have to respect that as well but but on the whole the immersion I've found as is probably for me given more positives than yeah like say being the being the bolt on come in and Joe's here every so often or or go and see him if you've got got a problem kind of approach. Okay yeah so there might be some more things to bear in mind there about um how much you want to be seen to be part of the the team whether you wear the colours whether you're a little bit kind of sidelined from that and uh yeah thanks for picking me up on that there are I'm sure there are different ways of of doing it depending on the the context and I suppose you make a choice depending on what you've seen and what you think is most appropriate and also what kind of fits with your personality I suppose as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Yeah and and this idea you if you speak to different football clubs I think it's it's really important for them to understand what they're looking for if they they recruit in for um a sports psychologist and and what are their what is their remit because speaking to peers across different clubs it varies quite dramatically and yeah um and and there's there's not necessarily a right or wrong because it is suits the various of that particular particular club but yeah I think uh yeah definitely at an organisational level just of I've not always yeah they've not always been sure what they're recruiting in for is the impression I've got.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Okay I'm I wasn't I was going to skip past this question. We could try this question out and see see whether you like it or not or we can just or we can just ditch it. But I mean I I my knowledge of Stoke City I have to um put my hand up is is probably a kind of a a passing uh glance at at BBC football. I'm assuming like probably many clubs in the time that you've been there there have been changes of of manager.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

What happens when the the manager changes how does that kind of impact where you are as the the sports psychologist I think from a personal level you are still like like other staff not sure what that means for you as an individual potentially in terms of your remit what what you do but then you you take on the role of of supporting the wider team and and and staff around their insecurities the the the that process of of change management which I I think if you if you're looking at those transitional things from business to sport I think now it's happened um more than once you you do for personally go into a bit of a action mode where can I support where can I be of value um and is there anything players staff need during this process because a lot of times it can still be during a process where training and the season's going on as well. So you know things don't just stop. You've still got to actually go out and deliver on the pitch carry on through with your preparation of routines whilst this this stuff is going on in the background.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

It's interesting how you mentioned that after it happening a couple of times when it does happen you tend to go into action mode a wee bit quicker. And it reminds me of a a podcast that I've done recently with a a guy called Richard Waddell who is now runs a kind of a recruitment and a talent identification company but he was in the military and has done tours in in Iraq and Afghanistan they said in in Sandhurst what they drill into you over and over again is to expect change and and so when it happens it doesn't feel like that shock. You just go like you say you go into action mode how can I be helpful? How can I support others how can we address the situation instead of howling at the moon oh you know this lovely comfy environment with which I was really happy with is now completely changed and bemoaning that actually the the default reaction is okay right change is happening what do we do yeah yeah and fantastic that they do that because I'd been at a club where it had been quite stable relatively in terms of football terms for a number of years.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

So I think that initial sort of managerial departure yeah it we you saw the impact that it had.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Okay well let's talk about let's talk about another sport now.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

So moving from the second greatest sport in the world to the the greatest sport in the world rugby union for anyone listening that is a uh an opinion by the uh proprietor of the podcast and not not a uh an an an official official quantification so you're now in in bath you're you're splitting your time between Stoke City and Bath um is that right that's correct yeah how did that come about and and how have you found that balance thus far yeah so transitioned into rugby union last summer um yeah just just told to to apply for a a role in in rugby union and and was successful in that process and yeah I effectively started working there last August so yeah just under a year so how have I found it fascinating uh every every week because presented new learnings um uh the chance to work with international players and and coaches of of elite standard but same in football I think that again you can we could speak all day about the the similarities and and the differences in those those two spaces but overall as a as a practitioner I think give me loads of of experiences opportunities to to develop and broaden uh the it's been an interesting year for rugby and certainly one to to transition into full time with various things going on so yeah uh it has been full on in terms of uh but but in a good way in in yeah uh it's an environment which you know you're utilized and and you you you you find that players staff alike will be tapping in and drawing on you to to support and engage where you can and in terms of that mental pie chart in terms of where you you where you spend your time are there any slight differences between the the rugby context and the the football context you do you find yourself thinking oh actually spend a wee bit more time on that particular thing in in rugby and it might be because of the the role that you're doing opposed to um the differences in the actual sport but um I wonder if you whether you've noticed any any changes in that imaginary pie chart. Yeah I I I think just the nature of the way the role set up probably more individually with players and maybe that's just the general size of a rugby squad where there is such a a far bigger numbers in terms of of personnel but similar in in terms of engaging in meetings in being involved with um senior players in terms of of an organizational level um working with senior management that that that that I mean there's probably more similarities in terms of uh you know division of work than not from the outside in it feels like uh rugby has had a real interest in the organizational elements and the culture for a long time when you you look at say like the Living with Lions DVDs going back to to 97 and the stuff they do with the the military the team building you hear kind of Stuart Lancaster on podcasts talking about going around the world looking at uh uh kind of different organizations whether it's kind of NFL uh nba and bringing that back you there's a you do get a real sense that rugby's really interested in that that those sides of things or sorry those types of things is that something that you you felt coming into to rugby definitely there in terms of being far ahead of the curve probably than than football but may I I don't want to do football research because even now you we've we've got coaches um that are going out doing their um various badges a license pro licenses and I think those course from you speak to the the coaches coming back and and they do have massive elements of that where they would look to gather what they can garner what they can from from external organisations and and yeah those nuggets that you can pick up from the way yeah different different teams and different sports work. So whilst they may not be as ahead of rugby I think yeah that there's definitely an appetite in football. So the the coaches coming back from the the the FA and the UEFA courses are mentioning that the the curriculums are changing in order to to look more of that stuff from from the outside that definitely again speaking to one of our coaches who who part of their their course um went and looked at at uh the the World Ballet um oh wow really yet the um what's the acting school in London the famous one I think they they've had contacts there they've they've so yeah I think they're they're the these things are definitely occurring and and they see the value in it which uh the the the the coaches coming up for our academy I think they've got massive appreciation for what different different environments and organisations can can bring to their practice.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Wow I suppose looping back to a book that you mentioned there at the start range that's uh I suppose looping back to that kind of that Epstein idea of you know taking if influences from even the most unexpected of places you know how does how does the kind of how they teach young people skills and and and learning and growth in that context apply to football. That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Yeah yeah and and I think just even coaches reflecting with those sort of questions in mind is is just seeing in in seven years how how that has is continuing to evolve which personally I I only see it as a good thing in terms of being able to develop rounded young young athletes and people.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

There was something in I I want to say it was Guillain Balagay's biography of Pep Guardiola I want to say it was in that book but I can't remember where I read this but apparently Johann Cruyff was absolutely obsessed at taking anything and applying it back to football. He would go to an art gallery and he'd wander around the art gallery and he would he would see things in that art gallery that he could apply to football in some kind of I want to say I want to use the word tenuous but not tenuous but he's he's made that leap of imagination from his experience in that creative world and bringing that back to his experience. I think there's something quite powerful isn't that isn't there in that in having a kind of a broad range of experiences and being able to bring them back and triangulate them to your your performance area. Definitely and I think the Dutch are onto something because I I I read that they were some of the first um the the clubs to to bring in psychologists to support them back in the 50s 60s and use them regularly so uh yeah there might be uh yeah something in that innovative Dutch right so we're we're approaching the end um so I'm gonna ask the the question that I ask most people on the the podcast which is what does a psychologically informed environment a pie what does a a psychologically informed environment look like to you okay well if I think about my experiences um what does it mean?

SPEAKER_00 43:52

It means individuals in that environment they're they're they're having an awareness of their impact on other People, or maybe a desire to understand their impact on other people. So that could be in their behavior, their language, their decision making. It could be their emotional responses, perhaps. Um, definitely the support they offer, or or the challenges they set for each other. That would be, I think it's naive to think that everyone is fascinated by the brain and human behaviour, like perhaps me and you are, but you you can still foster an environment where psychological principles, the ones that like we read about in books or research papers, listen to in podcasts, uh, are actually being applied and discussed in these practical settings with recognition of how they they could help a team or organization achieve their objectives.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

That's really interesting. There's I mean, there's a lot, there's a huge amount of empathy in your answer there, in terms of uh an environment where people have an awareness or a an insight into what others are feeling, are thinking, uh doing, and why that might be. But also, I think there's a lot of empathy in your your observation there that yes, we geek out on the brain and how how we think and the interaction between thoughts and feelings and behaviour, but not everyone is going to have that same obsession. And understanding and appreciating and accepting that also helps us to be more effective because if we if we understand that and appreciate that, then we can tailor what we do in order for it to be more effective.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Yeah, I couldn't have put it better. Yeah, absolutely agree.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

Yeah, good. Well, I'm happy the the summary chimes with what you were what you were thinking. Um Joe, thanks so much for for taking some of your time out of your uh your day to share some of your insights and experiences from mining in Western Australia to HR to football to rugby uh and everything in between. It's been a great conversation. So thanks for sharing that. If people want to keep up to date with what you're doing, following, I know you've written a book uh recently or you've you've uh co-published the book um with some some other authors. Where can people follow you? Where can people get that information?

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Yeah, so I'd it's probably one of my downfalls. I'm not not an avid social media, I am on social media, um Dr. Joe Dixon um on Twitter, but uh yeah, I I do need to um buck up my ideas in terms of uh posting and and engaging on that, but certainly, certainly on there. The book um has come out really at this time lockdown, a terrible timing in terms of uh yeah publicity and and getting out there. But uh the book I've co-published with uh uh Jamie De Barker, Richard Thelwell, and Ian Mitchell, uh The Psychology of Soccer. So 20 chapters from uh different uh practitioners and academics uh that have worked in football over many years, um touching on the various aspects of working as a psychologist in professional football. So covering a number of topics, transitions, penalty kicks, the use of uh of I guess things like leadership, uh, psychology of referees, user development, working with parents. You name it, it's in the 20 chapters. Um so if if you're interested in in reading about how the psychology is applied in those settings, then uh yeah, by all means uh look it up, I believe, on Amazon's or all good book retailers.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Great, great stuff. Well, I'll leave the links to the um the Twitter profile and a link to to the book in the the podcast description. But um Joe, thanks so much again for uh for talking, for discussing, for sharing your your experiences. It's much appreciated. And uh I suppose best of luck with with the football and the rugby seasons coming up.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Thanks so much, Pete. Really, really appreciate it, really enjoyed

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_00 47:49

it.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

If you're still listening, thank you for sharing another slice of pie with me. As I mentioned at the start, season two's episode pacing has slowed down somewhat. However, there are plenty of great episodes left in the season to look forward to, including part twos with Jamie Barker, Elliot Newell, and Matt Slater and Chris Hartley. In this episode with Joe, what struck me about the realities of working as an applied practitioner was the number of micro decisions that are made on a daily or weekly basis that either have a direct or indirect impact on your ability to perform in that role. This could be from how to deal with different personalities with different levels of knowledge or engagement in psychology, to when to engage with a player or when to stand back, or even to deciding whether to wear the team kit around the training ground. The other thing that I took from the conversation was Joe's meandering career journey to where he is now. Starting out in HR and occupational psychology, living in Australia and the brave decision to pack up everything to come home and pursue a new career path. It's a story that can give all of us a little bit of optimism that by working hard and being open to new possibilities, we can take our lives and careers in new directions. I got the feeling from talking to Joe that these opportunities weren't just happy accidents either, despite his humility, that they came off the back of hard work and building quality relationships with people. A lesson learned on the cold face of applied psychology in the first chapter of his career. That's all for this episode. The podcast is over one year old now, and I'm very thankful for those of you continuing to listen to Slice of Pie, from the UK to the US, Australia to Canada, to Germany, Ireland, the Netherlands, Sweden, Poland, Croatia, and all the other countries that pop up on my episode reports. I really appreciate it. If you haven't done so already, a review on iTunes is always super helpful. And in the meantime, have a good one and catch you for the next episode.