SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hello and welcome back to another Slice of Pie. It's funny, isn't it, the old universe? After another longer than planned hiatus from Podcast Publishing, there I am about to upload an episode when an email from the Sports Podcast Awards appears in my inbox. Slice of Pi, it turns out, has been shortlisted in the inaugural sports podcast awards under the well-being and performance category. Absolutely brilliant, what a funny old world. So just a big thank you to all the listeners, all the people that have supported this podcast on social media and have told their friends about it, those that have emailed me or text me with feedback on how to improve it, and of course the fantastic guests whose, let's be honest, expertise and insights are really the key part of it. If you are feeling super generous in January 2022, you can, if you are so inclined, go to the Sports Podcast Awards website and vote for the show. I'll leave that link in the description, and if you do end up voting, make sure you tweet or email, LinkedIn, Facebook, or whatever communication channel me afterwards, and I'll add you to my long list of people to buy a drink for in 2022. Once again, thank you so much for the support. But back to the first episode of 2022, an episode recorded an embarrassingly long time ago, but finally edited and ready to go. As you know, the Pi stands for the Psychologically Informed Environment, and over the first two seasons I've been snooping around lots of different environments and performance domains, from elite sport to the military to education and many more. However, this is the first time I've interviewed someone from the performing arts. Jack Applee is a London-based core conductor who first studied at the University of Birmingham where he was mentored by Simon Housey, CBE, and then went on to train at the Royal Academy of Music under the tutelage of Patrick Russell. Patrick Russell, by the way, founded the Royal Academy of Music's core conducting department in 1997, so not a bad tutelage there. Jack got his master's in core conducting, was awarded a distinction and received the Sir Thomas Armstrong Core Leadership Prize. In 2019, he competed in the Jazzet Vitals International Core Conducting Competition and then the World Corps Conducting Competition in Hong Kong, reaching the semi-finals on both occasions. He was also awarded second prize at the Ignaugral London International Core Conducting Competition in 2018. So Jack knows what he's talking about when it comes to conducting. But aside from his impressive plaudits, Jack also happens to be about one of the most magnetic characters you'd hope to meet. Incredibly articulate, insightful, and immensely passionate about what he does. And you'll hear this in the first part of the interview where he discusses his journey into music. He's also a big sports fan as well, and Jack makes some very entertaining analogies between sport and music, particularly the similarities between conducting and goalkeeping. So watch out for that part when it comes up. Right, that's enough preamble. We'll speak again after Curtains Down to reflect a bit at the end, but for now, let's get into the episode with Jack Appeli. Jack, how are we?

SPEAKER_04 3:48

Very well, thank you very much. Very, very well. Thank you for having me on. I'm looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Love it. Love the positive. I find that I say not too bad far too often when asked that question. So I really appreciate it when people come at me with a really positive response like that.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

I think not too bad is pretty good considering the situation we find ourselves in at the moment, actually. So I think most people would take that.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

And so is that a genuinely kind of optimistic outlook you have at the moment, or are you trying to stay optimistic despite what's what's happening in the world?

SPEAKER_04 4:25

It I think it varies from day to day, really, to be honest. I think there are days where I feel very motivated and very positive. And then there are other days when I feel considerably less positive, maybe not positive, but I I have blue days which I sort of like notice notice to myself. But it's you know that's that's okay to to have. And then there are days where I feel less productive as well. But I think both are equally fine. You've just I think you've just got to be honest and honest with yourself and say, actually, do you know what today I'm getting lots of stuff done, but you know, the next day you could be getting significantly less done. And I think that's okay. But overall, yeah, I'm feeling pretty positive, which is good.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

So and with all the I suppose the the lack of congregations and choirs at the moment, how do you how do you keep yourself busy in this period? What can you be proactive and what can you be doing?

SPEAKER_04 5:16

Well, I essentially lots of planning, lots of planning for when we come out of lockdown. So I've been spending the last few weeks programming concerts for my various choirs, like for the autumn term and looking towards Christmas. So it's quite funny. The sun's been shining outside, and I've been programming Christmas carols, which has been she's quite funny, that's part of the job. But also, also looking into like spring 2021 as well, and uh looking ahead to that. So there's that. But the thing is though, actually, it's funny because I've because I've got more time on my hands, because usually I'd be out like doing things, you know, the programming comes a little bit quicker. So you send all these things off, and then you're waiting for people at the other end to pick it up and do what they need to do with it and then send it back. So actually, yeah, it's good to have a good to have a book on the go at the same time and and studying lots of music, new new music, lots of listening, uh, and actually, yeah, it's a golden opportunity to actually sit down and listen to music in a way which actually um I don't really have as much time to normally. So making the most of the situation.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

And how are the how are the other the people in your position handling it? Is there a a community of of conductors that you keep in touch with? Do you how is everyone else managing through this period as well?

SPEAKER_04 6:36

It's it's a very interesting question because usually when in normal times the conductor can actually be quite it can be quite a lonely job because there's only ever one of you in the room at any time. And if you're in town working with you know a group or a you know, a guest group where they have lots of conductors on a conveyor belt, as it were, you might be there for a week, but then the following week they've got somebody else coming in. So and it might be somebody you know, it might somebody not know, but there's you you never there's only ever one of you in the room at one time. But having said that, because this is a little bit different, I've been checking, I've been checking in with my friends over the past couple of weeks or so, thinking at times, usually when it's been a bit blue, as I said, actually, just being like, oh my goodness, I'm actually struggling a little bit today, or goodness, I just sort of feel a little bit hopeless today. Is this the same for my friends and my other colleagues? And actually, to be honest, it is. It really is. And actually, it doesn't matter whether you're like me and recently come out of uh uh music college or whether you've been in the profession for you know 40 odd years, uh we're all in exactly the same position, and our professional like life has been decimated really over the um over the past six weeks. So actually, there's a small group of us actually who are speaking to each other and drawing on each other, I think. And I think that's very important. Uh as I say, particularly given that the job can be quite lonely at normal times, it's quite nice to know that uh you're not the only one who's going through a rough time with it.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

So that's interesting. So are you saying that prior to this period you might not have utilized that network of colleagues as much, but because of this this period, it's kind of brought to life the value of having that network?

SPEAKER_04 8:29

I think so, yes. And because usually we're all doing the same thing, our own thing as well. So we're in our own worlds and we're all going off conducting our own engagements uh and got uh and got our own schedules and diaries and all that kind of stuff to uphold. So actually, you know, we're all very busy most of the time doing our own thing. So so yes, I would definitely say that I've drawn on that network more in recent weeks than uh probably have done over the past couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Great. Well, I think it would be really useful for for those listening to the podcast that may come from a sport background or a business or an education. I'm really stoked to have someone from the world of music and the performing arts to talk about some of the themes that the podcast likes to talk about, whether it's performance, well-being, the impact of the environment. Just as a a backdrop to all of this, maybe it might be just worth briefly describing your own journey through music, how you've got to this point, and what the what are the key challenges that you you deal with in this world?

SPEAKER_04 9:41

Well, so I've been involved in music from like a very, very young age. Uh, there was always music going on in the home, and there was lots of singing um around the house. Uh and then I went to school and joined a choir. Uh I joined the local parish church choir essentially. And that was a fantastic introduction to choral music. Uh, I mean I was always I was also playing like the viola as well and and the piano, and there was there was lots of things going on, and then essentially nobody told me to stop, really. So I just I just kept on going and going and going and played in the orchestras, played in in uh sang in the choirs at school, and just took a uh took advantage of every opportunity which was made available to me, really. And then whilst at the time actually being very interested in my football as well, actually, I was a goalkeeper for a very long time and I was you know playing at the weekends and training like during the week, but then also you know, practicing and and you know having these two hobbies at the time, hobbies and interests, going on simultaneously. And then it wasn't really until I was about 16, 17, well, I I had a quite a bad accident when I was about 16 years old, which sort of brought the footballing career to an end, which meant I had to pour more and more into my music. And at that point I had already begun like conducting when I was at school, conducting the school choir. And then I went to Sick Form and looking, actively looking for like a conducting opportunity at that point, which at 17, you know, 16, 17 is is I I thought I thought it was quite young actually to be to make an active decision, just like, you know, actually, this is really what I want to do. And my singing teacher at the time put me and suggested I go and for the CBSO chorus, which is the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra chorus, which is a big amateur chorus singing big pieces with with with orchestra. And uh I went to my audition and the uh conductor called me up the day after. I was I was at school actually, I was like in my school uniform, and like I I took I had to step out of the um had to step out of my psychology class to take the phone call. And he said, basically, it's great, uh, but I think you're a little bit too young. He said, I think you're a little bit too young. I was like, oh, and you know, I was very disappointed, all that kind of thing. He said, however, I'm about to take up a position at the University of Birmingham, where uh I'll be conducting a choir there. And you said in your interview that you'd be interested in going to the University of Birmingham, uh, and I'd be very interested in you joining that choir, and you can you know get used to the surroundings, the uh the singers will be more closer to you in age as well, and I think that'll be a positive experience for you. So I on a Monday night, my mum dropped drive drove me into Birmingham, and I went to this choir, choir rehearsal on a Monday night and went to university on from then after that. More and more conducting followed, and then I came down to London after my time at Birmingham finished to pursue a masters in choral conducting at the Royal Academy of Music.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Is that a is that a tough, tough place to get into? Is it quite competitive to get into the Royal Academy?

SPEAKER_04 13:02

It is it is very competitive. It's it's a very small course. There they were only over five people on the course uh at one time across Oh wow, it's a small class. Yeah, across two years. And there was there was a uh there was a mixture of people. There was a woman from Mexico who had come over, and then there were three of us uh men as well. Unfortunately, conducting is is a profession where uh men too do tend to dominate. However, that is changing actually, but as uh in recent uh in recent years. But but it was a very small class, and I graduated about must be getting on to about two years ago this summer actually. So I've been out in the big bad world for about two years, uh taking up jobs and uh engagements and trying to make a living for myself, really. So that's how I got to that's how I got to today, really. Whistle stop tour of my uh of my life so far.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Sounds like you were in love with it from first sight or or first the equivalent is for first hear at first.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Very much so, actually. Very much, and uh, believe it or not, one of the one of the most influential experiences was as I said, when I was very young, there was lots of music going on in the home, and I have a very vivid memory of watching Disney's Fantasia. Oh yes, yes, and uh the very opening is there's a silhouette of Leopold Stokowski, the very famous, very famous conductor. And I was sort of transfixed by watching this like on the um on the TV, and um and this was when I was very, very young, like probably about you know four or five or something like that. I was just absolutely transfixed by it, and the relationship between the conductor and uh the musicians, which was fascinating actually, because they're actually that film, for anyone who hasn't seen it, you don't actually see the musicians themselves, you only see the silhouettes and the pictures of their bows. Uh no singers, interesting, funnily enough, actually, but just an orchestra. But it was uh that sort of relationship between those people had a very lasting impression on me. Still does, I still watch it every now and then, actually. And uh yeah, particularly now with quarantine. My brother subscribed to Disney Plus, so I can watch it whenever I want to now, which is good on his subscription.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

So oh lovely, indeed. So there's uh a moment that you can remember this vivid memory that's emblematic of kind of falling in love with this music world. You've sounds like you've participated and thrown yourself into anything you can get your hands on, whether it's the local parish choir, whether it's singing, whether it's playing instruments yourself. I love this quite no one told me to stop, so I just kept on kept on leaning into that thing I was passionate about.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

Exactly, exactly. After after like watching Light Fantasia and that kind of thing, then it sort of like went away for um for for several years. I mean, you hear these stories about musicians who have really really been pushed and driven into the profession, usually by their parents, actually. And I don't know how to what extent that is true, but I know from my experience that was absolutely not the case with me. My my my mom never really there was never a pressure from my mum for me to to really make this uh a living, really, or anything like that. It was just something that she obviously saw that I enjoyed, and she just let me let me pursue it at my own rate, which I'm incredibly grateful for. I remember when actually when the real con conducting moment really happened, was I was playing in a string orchestra when I was uh secondary school, and nothing was getting done in this rehearsal. I remember you know, lots of chatty kids, and nothing really was getting done, and teacher, the conductor, was having a really difficult time, and she had to step out of the room to take a phone call, and I was like, right, this is nothing is really getting done here. So I just I remember putting my instrument down, getting up in front of the stand, it was like, right, guys, come on, we can do better than this. And yeah, and you know, it really I was like, okay, so like you know, this is not fair, we can do better than this. Let's start from you know bar six and away we go. And the teacher walked back in and she and I was like and she was like, No, no, please carry on, please carry on. And then she was like, actually, you're quite good. So um and that was it, and then more and more opportunities came from that, and it just kept on growing and growing and growing, really. So yeah, so I'm incredibly great grateful uh to that teacher for um for uh for for letting me uh pursue letting you get in there, letting me get in there, and also part of me uh is also very grateful for the people in that orchestra for being incredibly rude, incredibly not getting anything done because otherwise I probably wouldn't have felt the need uh or desire to get up in front of them and sort them out.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

So brilliant. I love that story. It reminds me of a kind of 80s, kind of 80s movie like the mighty ducks or something. Gordon Bombay has left the team for a bit, so they have to look after themselves. Someone steps into the the role of coach. Um I love that that bit you mentioned around what I was hearing there was kind of push versus pull. There might be there might be other people, not just in in music, but definitely in sport, you see it all the time where kids can be pushed into something by a parent who's very passionate about that sport, but it felt like for you it was more of a pull, you were being pulled in by your own passion, your own enjoyment by it.

SPEAKER_04 18:51

Absolutely, absolutely. And it wasn't until years later, actually, when I was a teenager, I realised that there was actually music in the family beforehand. My grandfather was a uh, in addition to being a uh a wholesaler, he was also an amateur tenor and sang big roles in in Birmingham Town Hall. Uh, he sang the role of Grantis in Elgar's The Dream of Grantis, which was actually premiered in Birmingham Town Hall uh at the beginning of the 20th century, and he sang, you know, major roles, and there were but he was also a greengrocer. And that's and I had absolutely no idea, but it turns out there was actually music in the family before.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Does that make a does that make a difference? Does that help when you find something like that out? Do you think, oh wow, no, it's it's in my it's in my blood. No wonder I I like this stuff.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Well, I don't know, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Yeah, uh are are musicians born or are they made? I remember being, yeah, it's it's an interesting question, and I don't really know the answer. I think um I re I don't really know the answer, it's a huge question. And it's the same with footballers and all kinds of sports people as well. Like, are are footballers and rugby players born or are they made? I don't know. I I I think you can have a natural ability. I think you can have an innate ability. I mean, there there are musicians for whom they are just born to play the piano or born to play the cello, and they can create a sound, a natural sounds on a on a I I think I think of actually of Sheku Kane uh Mason, actually, who was um played at the Royal Wedding a c a couple of years ago. Now he believe it or not, actually, he was actually at the academy when when I was there, actually. He was an undergraduate when I was when I was a postgraduate. And um but he had such an innate ability. What makes him so brilliant is that he's able to get the sound out of an instrument, which actually I don't I believe nobody else in the world can, and that is something quite special. Um so I do believe that there is an innate ability that you can be born with, but I think it is absolutely something that you have to be coached in, and you have to spend the hours practicing just like you do in any sport or or or anything you need to spend the hours in the practice room to unlock unlock that potential.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah, and and talking about sinking all those hours in, we often see across different domains, whether it's sport, whether it's music, whether it's academia, as you move further and further through your childhood and then your teenage years, it gets to a point where you kind of have to choose what you're gonna double down on. And you you mentioned that sport was equally a a huge passion. Was it always very clear that music was number one and sport was number two? Was there a point where you kind of felt like you had to choose between the two?

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Well, uh the Growing up they both were of equal importance. Uh I I was it's funny, but and actually as I was I've I look back now and I think actually they were both hand in hand, particularly as a role of conductor. I mean I was a goalkeeper and my my old teammates with you know, I don't think I f I I dread to think what they would say, but I imagine they would say that I had a big gob on me and I used to tell people what I thought.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

And you would be quite a good characteristic for a core conductor.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

Absolutely. I mean you can't shout at people, you can't shout at people, it must be said, but those organizational skills of organ, you know, organizing your defense, looking at the bigger picture of the game, and you know, actually in some cases, you know, the best goalkeepers around at the moment. Like I I I always I always judge, I mean, there's there's the shot stopping, and there's all those skills that make you a fantastic goalkeeper, but that ability to read the game and to be able to uh you know quickly get an attack, you know, go from defense into that transition is a very, very important part of the game. And but the organizational aspect as well and the commanding presence, and you know, conductors have to have a presence, they have to have an authority, which doesn't necessarily need to be spoken, or you know, it just needs to that that idea that you can walk into a room and quietly command it, I think is very, very important. Growing up, I thought those those two as those two those two activities growing up simultaneously was were were both feeding each other. When it came to having to make a decision, actually that decision was made for me in when I was 16 years old. I I fractured three vertebrae in my back in an accident. And oh wow. Yeah, indeed. So that was the end of the goalkeeping uh career that was. And it's amazing actually, speaking about breaks, actually, it was literally that break, it actually produced uh an opportunity for me in a musical opportunity. So when I was in hospital, I got visited by someone uh in in Dudley Russell's Hall Hospital. Uh I was uh visited by someone from the Make a Wish Foundation attached to the hospital. And he came and I remember very vividly, I was I you know I had to learn pretty much learn how to walk again. It really was not a pleasant experience. And he came and spent some time with me and sat sat next to my bed and we just had a chat. I can't remember what about, but we just spoke about things. And I was the eldest kid on the on the children's ward, and he said when he was leaving, he said, I haven't really got anything for like a 16-year-old kid, really. I was like, it's you know, it's quite okay. He said, But you know, take this form, fill it in and see what happens. Anyway, so obviously the make a wish form is in front of me, and I was thinking, what on earth should I put down? I was like, I've got no idea. He was like, Oh, just put just put something down. I was like, okay, so I put down on this piece of paper that I wanted to conduct Zadok the Priest at the Royal Albert Hall at the last night of the promise, because I thought, you know, why not?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

It's not gonna happen. Anyway, I love the specificity. You picked out the the music, the location, exactly the time.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

Exactly. I mean, I had I had absolutely no idea. Anyway, so about you know, nine months later, I was just sitting on my GCSEs, uh, and then my mum gets a phone call saying uh Mrs. Appley, this is uh your sir, I hear your son's been involved in an accident. And my mom, I'm my mum's probably thinking, Oh my god, it's like one of those like you know, scams or you know, all that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, indeed, because I didn't tell her that I put in and filled in the form because I didn't think anything was going to come off it. Anyway, so um, yes, this is this is Jack Appley's uh moment. Well, he said that he wanted to conduct Zal of the Priest at the Royal Albert Hall at the last night of the proms, and and she was like, Oh, okay. He said, Well, I can't do the Royal Albert Hall, and I can't do The Last Night of the Proms, but I can do acquire a conservative Birmingham Conservatoire Freshers in at the Birmingham Conservatoire. And so, and she I was like, Oh my god. So the following September I just started at Sickfall when I had to go after Birmingham and uh conduct Xelot the Priest with these Conservatoire Freshers who must have been thinking, oh my goodness, who is this? Who is this like who's only a few years because I would I would have been I was younger than them, like they were, you know, 16, 17, yeah, uh they were 17, 18 years old. And you know, I was you know still in school and and telling them how to sing Zayot the priest, it must have been a uh amazing, it must have been quite an experience for them. Well it was most certainly was for me, and I loved it, absolutely loved it. And you know, the the local paper was there and I was on the news and all that kind of thing, and it was you know it was very nice and it was it was definitely an influential experience. But my point is is that that experience wouldn't have happened had I not had my my accident, and I'm not you know telling people to go out and have an accident and fracture three vertebrates in their back because that's stupid. But I do find it amazing how the universe works sometimes, actually, in in those context, in those scenarios.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah, I mean, a great example of excavating some kind of opportunity out of a very, very challenging and traumatic, probably, I imagine, situation. As you've just reflected on, that's then giving you a focus. So that the sport is sadly out the window, but then I suppose that then frees up all of that extra energy and time you might have spent in sport to throw that into music.

SPEAKER_04 27:53

Yeah, totally, totally, totally, totally.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Also, great example of negotiation skills there, set a really high anchor point. I want the Albert Hall. And if you get and if you get the Birmingham Conservatoire, then fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

Amazing. Yeah, no, I I hadn't thought of it like that actually, but uh I I really just didn't, I just had no idea. I had absolutely no idea. You know, I hadn't I hadn't at that point. I mentioned my mentor at the University of Birmingham. I hadn't been introduced to him yet. I had absolutely no idea really what there was out there. I was, you know, doing like Saturday music school, and actually, you know, I I was doing that before when the football kicked in. So my mum used to uh take me to Saturday music school, and then I'd sometimes have to rush off and she'd have to drive me off to a game or whatever, and like, you know, it was I had absolutely no idea, but and I had no idea what to put down on this form, but just something, I don't know, just something told me to put that down. And um yeah, I mean, goodness me, I could have put anything down. I could have said that I want to I want to take the winning penalty in the FA Cup final, you know, I could have put that down, and uh I mean I don't think that would have happened, but uh you know, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Okay, well let's let's fast forward to the present day now. One thing I was really quite interested to talk about was competitiveness because I think those who have never really lent into the world of music or the performing arts, let's say listeners that are more au fair with sport and business and see those as naturally competitive environments, they might not know just how competitive that environment you're in is. For example, something that I certainly didn't know since well, I didn't know up until very recently before we started talking, is that you can have conducting competitions.

SPEAKER_04 29:54

This is very true. Yes, conducting competitions, piano competitions. So actually at the moment, there is a musical, it's not a conducting competition, but there is a on BB on the BBC at the moment, there is BBC Young Musician of the Year, and they have heats uh in all different fields, percussion, piano, keyboard, you know, strings, and then so you have those heats, and if you win those heats, then you go through to the final, and then there's the grand final where they have the equivalent of the semi-final, I suppose, is when they have the winners of all those heats, the different disciplines, and then after that you go through to the final where you usually play a concerto, which is a piece of solo instrument and orchestra with a professional orchestra, and this is being broadcast on the BBC at the moment, which is um which is fascinating to watch. But yes, conducting competitions as well. And so I've taken part in several conducting competitions over the past couple of years, all over the place, actually. Um, there was a competition in London, London International Choral Conducting Competition, a bit of a mouthful, otherwise known as uh Lick, as uh affectionately known as uh to me as uh Lick. So and uh yeah, they probably wouldn't thank me for that. And uh the problem is the choral conducting competition at the end. So all these conducting all these competitions all have a k at the end, it doesn't matter where you go. And then so I I ended up going out to Hong Kong as well uh for the world's choral conducting competition. That was amazing. That was I'd never been I'd never been to Asia before, and that was that was absolutely amazing. And then last October I went out to um Riga in Latvia, and I was supposed to be going to Denmark this summer for a conducting competition out there, but that's been that's been cancelled, sadly, which sorry, postponed. Uh I'm going out next year, which um which I'm very excited about. Interesting, you speak about competitiveness actually. That competition in Denmark next year. I think there are I think there are 18 contestants, of which over half are British.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

And are known to me as well, two of which I was actually were in the same class as me at the academy, actually. So competitiveness it it's it's very difficult because particularly in conducting as well, it's a it's it's quite a small world, pretty much everybody knows everybody, and you're competing against your friends, which is quite tricky because you've got your friendship, but you've also got that professional relationship, and you've got to look out for yourself, but you've also got to be respectful and you know be a good colleague. So it's it's a very complex relationship.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

That is interesting because I suppose let's take a direct example with sport, and let's take tennis, for example. So I've been seeing videos of Rafa Nadal and Federo and Djokovic all and Andy Murray all FaceTime each other through this period, and it seems like they genuinely do get on with each other quite well, but their number one go-to relationship is that of an adversary or a competitor, because that is the norm in sport, is you're a competitor, you compete all the time, and then if you develop relationships outside, then then great. But I suppose in your world, the competition isn't the primary element that comes around now and again. So the competition element comes around now and again, and so your default is actually a a colleague, a might even be a friend or a source of social support, but then suddenly you're thrown into a very different relationship where you are a competitor.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

Yeah, no, I totally agree. It it's very interesting, actually, because I mean I've spoken about the competitions. Competitions are sort of a double-edged sword in many ways, actually, because they are entirely an artificial scenario, entirely an artificial scenario, they are a means to an end, and in for somebody like myself, they fall, they they present an opportunity for a break in the profession. Essentially, usually these competitions have as a prize, they usually have a professional engagement. Okay. Um, so you're going to these competitions in the hope of winning, picking up content, not necessarily in the hope of winning, actually, that's that's incorrect. It's winning by either picking up a contact, uh, a contact or picking up an opportunity as a result of your performance in that competition. So you might not as actually believe it or not, which is what's happened to me actually in recent years, actually, I haven't won a competition, but I have picked up a professional engagement as a result of my performance uh during across that week. But as I say, it's an entirely artificial scenario because usually work from day to day-to-day work, you're not actually competing against other people. You sort of are, but you're sort of not, in the respect of you're working with people, you're working with a choir, you're working with an orchestra. And so it's actually a very collaborative environment on a day-to-day basis, but as a means to an end to get that opportunity, sometimes, particularly professional engagements, actually, uh, when you're working with a professional choir as opposed to an amateur choir, that competition is a means to an end. So, yeah, so it's um it's a complicated dynamic because you have to, particularly in that competition scenario, just like you would in my my vision that I always have when I go to these competitions is actually of a Olympic athlete, actually, specifically swimmers or rugby players, actually, when they come to the ground or whatever, and when they come pool side and they've got their headphones on and they're keeping their head in the game or whatever. Yeah, very strange. Like it's you know, being able to get yourself into the zone or whatever the zone is really where you can have like optimal performance. It's exactly the same with conductors, except conductors do it every time, every time they go into a rehearsal, every time they go onto a stage for a performance. That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to perform to the best of their ability. And when I say perform to the best of their ability, the goal for me, anyway, is to ensure that the people who you're working with, the choir, is to create the right scenario and the right conditions to allow them to perform to the best of their ability. That is essentially the point of the conductor, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

And will you have a do you have a or do conductors have pre-performance routines like athletes do? Will they kind of manage themselves or regulate themselves in a certain way, try and build themselves up?

SPEAKER_04 36:35

They might do. They might do. Some people, some people might do that. Everybody has their own, that won't come as a surprise to you that everybody has their own routine before before a concert. Some people like to, for example, some people like to eat before a concert. Actually, some people like to go out for a big meal, you know, after a concert, you know, what what time you turn up to the venue, people have their own routines. It's interesting though, because you know, in sport, performance psychology is actually quite it's a huge field in the world of sport at the moment. And whereas in comparison to other performance mediums, I think primarily of music, performance psychology is only a recently emerging phenomenon, really. And so I think there are a lot of scenarios where musicians I think would really benefit from performance psychology. I actually think I actually think there should be a whole department of performance psychologists attached to the music conservatoir across the country and universities as well. So actually these young professional musicians, emerging musicians, can actually go and say, actually, do you know what I'm I'm struggling a lot with you know my nerves, I'm struggling a lot with you know XYZ. And actually they can go to a resident performance psychologist who they who they can build up a rapport and a trust and a relationship with, who can then help them overcome whatever they feel they need help with. But in music, it's a very, very new, it's very, very new and needs needs a lot more investment and development.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

And let's let's take the lens of competitiveness from let's say a a solo scenario where you're going into a competition in Copenhagen or Hong Kong, very, very exciting. And let's bring that sense of competitiveness back to the day-to-day job, working with a team. I know that you're you've worked with a number of different symphony choruses, choirs from the London Symphony Chorus to the University Women's Choir at Birmingham, Imperial College, and workplace choirs. What are the the kind of the different levels of I want to say competitiveness, but let's use that as a proxy for a kind of a obsession to do the best work or the best product you can? Does that change across your your different teams or your different choirs that you're you're working with? Do you have to dial up that that sense of competitiveness, let's say, for some of those environments, but whereas others, it's a little bit more, let's say, fun, and you have to dial that down a wee bit with, but at the same time still looking for a high quality product. How does how does that work?

SPEAKER_04 39:20

When it comes to a day-to-day scenario, I don't think competitiveness is a helpful, forgive me, I don't think competitiveness is a is a is a helpful way to look at it. The way I look at this is expectations, really. And every group that I work with, I have different expectations in terms of a quality of product. However, I have a common expectation of everybody who I work with in that I expect them to give their best and to try hard and work hard. A successful performance for the London Symphony Chorus is going to be slightly different, but no, but not necessarily better than a workplace choir performance. It's just you're it's just different, but they are different, they're different animals, yeah. As uh, you know, and different species, different species of the same animal is a slightly better way of looking at it. If you break it down, whenever in every rehearsal you're conducting and you're hearing things come back at you, and your ears are constantly switched on, your critical judgment is always switched on, you're asking yourselves questions all the time. Do I like what I'm hearing? Is it what I'm expecting to be heard? If it's not what I'm expecting to be heard, do I like it? Do I not like it? Can I change it? Can I work with it? Do I need to intervene? And you're basically constantly asking yourself, do I need to do I need to intervene here or do I just let it go? And it's about what to let go and what not to let go. And experience tells you whether to intervene or not. And sometimes you get it wrong and sometimes you get it right. It's it's that those, it's a constantly, you know, a live process, like the music making process, it's particularly in a rehearsal, actually, as well. It's it's slightly different in a performance, but in a rehearsal, you're you're constantly working with and shaping and moulding, and it's a very, very much alive process. But in terms of differences between working with the groups, there are some things with say the Imperial College Chamber choir, the University Women's Choir up at Birmingham and the London Symphony Chorus that I would expect to be in place on a musical level. So, for example, I would expect on the most part, you know, final consonants to be together, what I called like the dental hygiene of like singing and choral music, which actually, you know, you would go, you know, most people would go to a performance and they think, oh my goodness, you know, they wouldn't think anything of it. Do you know what I mean? They really wouldn't, you know, they they probably wouldn't care, you know, if a final tea wasn't together or, you know, or anything like that. But you know, for somebody, for somebody like myself, you know, getting final concerts together is actually sort of quite an important thing, uh, because you know, it shows uniformity and you know, and clarity, and it allows what, but it's those technical things that allow the the whole, the greater whole to come across, you know, to an audience member that they can actually hear the text and they can actually hear the emotional content behind the text as well. So there are those kind of things which I would expect, but then with other groups, for example, possibly depending, depending on the depending on the group, you know, those things would need to be coached and encouraged. You know, so hopefully, uh one day after a period of time working with that group, actually then they become an expectation and then they become a second nature, really. And that's interesting because that that that takes you into an area of choir coaching as opposed to conducting, which are which are slightly different, slightly different areas.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

So it sounds like you could toggle between a number of different hats. It sounds as a like as a conductor, you're you can be a coach, you're a leader, you're a captain, you're a standard bearer. In terms of you know, you have a a lot of impact then on the development, the enjoyment, the motivation of that group to come to work? What when you look at it from that respect, when you look at your leadership impact on the teams and the groups and the choirs that you work with, what things are you really passionate about putting in place within that environment that is going to make people really infused and enjoy and develop and grow within that scenario? What are the different elements that you think make a good conductor in creating that environment?

SPEAKER_04 43:55

Well, I think first and foremost, people need to want to be there, not For me, because actually it's very difficult because actually a conductor's role is to try, and the show isn't all about them, it's absolutely not about them at all. I mean, some people make it about them, but it's it really it really isn't supposed to be about the conductor at all, it's about the music itself. And actually, a singer, an orchestral player, at whatever level, they need to have that draw and that pull that pulls them across the threshold to take their seat in a choir practice or in in uh or in a rehearsal. They need to want to be there. And people want to be in a choir practice because they want to sing. You know, I know it sounds very silly, but you know, it does sort of need to be there because it's interesting actually, because I I don't I really I'm a bit out of my comfort zone in this instance, but I've been listening to um the Peter that Peter Crouch podcast, actually.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

All right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:53

And how and occasionally they talk about individuals in you know elite football actually aren't really that, you know, they don't okay. So you've got your Jamie Carragers, for example, who like live and breathe football. Do you know what I mean? They live and breathe football. And then there are some people who actually decide, actually, do you know what I don't really want to watch like football, I don't really want to, you know, it's my job, I go to work and I play. Do you know what I mean? I sort of think I do honestly believe that you can't be a singer and not want to sing. Do you know what I mean? If you're going to be a professional singer, you've got to want to sing, you've got to want to open the mouth, you've got to want to create sound, and the conductor has got to encourage that from you. It's really hard to sing for somebody who you don't want to sing for. You know what I mean? Because particularly it's it's a bit of a moral dilemma, particularly as a professional, you're paid, you're there to sing, you're there to open your mouth and you know make as nice a sound as you possibly can. But if the person in front of you, if you're not wanting to sing for that person, then that is incredibly, incredibly hard to be there. So you've got to make people want to sing for you, you've got to make people want to be there. And and enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Okay. So how do you do that? What's the difference between someone wanting to be there, wanting to sing, yeah, wanting to engage with their conductor, and then the opposite. What do you think those differences are?

SPEAKER_04 46:22

I think uh enthusiasm on both parts. There's a there's a creative aspect, you've got to you've got to enjoy the journey. Uh the idea that on day one actually it sounds terrible, but on the concert day, it sounds absolutely fantastic. You know, you've got to you've got to enjoy that process. Enthusiasm, uh being inventive with your rehearsals, actually. So it's not the same thing every week. You're not sat down in the same formation every week, doing the same thing every week. You know, you get people standing up, you get people moving around, change it up, changing it up, changing the process and changing like cognitive aspect of like which as you use a different part of the brain, you know, and you've just got to be inventive, creative, sincere, but also, you know, because you can't be too funny, can't be too funny because otherwise people don't take you seriously. You've got to have the right amount of joy and enthusiasm, but you've also got to have a purpose as well. And uh people enjoy it when you push them hard. People do enjoy it. Again, it comes down to that expectation. People enjoy it when you push them, not too far. You've got to get the right amount of push to it's really hard. I'm sorry, I'm not I'm probably not making much sense.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

No, it makes makes complete sense. So we we talk we talk a lot about in performance psychology getting that balance between challenge and support. Yeah. So how much am I challenging someone's hand challenging someone to push their boundaries? Because pushing your boundaries and and growing through that is enjoyable, but how much support are you giving someone to do that as well? You're not just throwing them in shark-infested waters and letting them suffer.

SPEAKER_04 48:01

Totally. And you know, it's the idea that you're taking taking them by the hand and you're you're guiding them through this process. I just try to ensure that all the right conditions are there to allow everybody in the room to feel you know of worse, that everybody feels as if they're contributing to the every individual is contributing to the collective. That that's what I'm always trying to trying to think. And um making making a nice environment for everybody to want to be there.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Yeah. You mentioned that this is a a journey at the outset, and you also talked about expectations. I wonder those things few fused together at the outset. Is that something that you address on day one where you say this is a journey and this is what it's going to look like? Will you create a kind of shared vision for that group that you all commit to?

SPEAKER_04 49:01

I might do if it was if I was working with a new group for the first time that I was going to be working with for the foreseeable future. I wouldn't do it if I was a guest conductor somewhere, because you know, it's you know, it's that's not that's not your role. Your role as a guest conductor is to come in and do the job, yeah, and then you move on. But whereas if indeed, yes. Whereas if you're a uh you're working with a group that you're going to be working with for a long time for the foreseeable future, actually, I don't think there's any harm in you know outlining your expectations of of them, but also telling them what they can expect of you. And you know, I would I would say you can expect me to turn up on time, you can expect me to know my music, you can expect me to do whatever I can to get you to the level that you and I both think that you're capable of. You know, so it is being very open and and very honest as well.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

It's really interesting reflecting on some of the other stuff that you said there and potential crossovers into other places like sport. You you mentioned that you know they're there to sing. That's what that's what gives them enjoyment, that's why they've stepped over the threshold to participate with you in this. And there's there's a lot in the coaching world, a lot in the coaching literature over the last 20, 20, 10, 20 years, particularly in sports like football and rugby, whenever they're working on stuff that might not be skills-based. So it might be fitness, so it might be running laps, or it might be tactical stuff, to always try and integrate the ball into those coaching blueprints, those coaching patterns somehow, because fundamentally those athletes are obsessed with that sport and they're obsessed with having the ball at their feet or the rugby ball in their hands. So even if they're running laps, doing it with a ball. And so I thought there was an interesting crossover there as well. So I presume in a choir there are bits where you have to not be singing because you're talking about other stuff, but getting the balance between that coaching, but also just letting them let rip, letting them do the thing that they're there to do.

SPEAKER_04 51:15

Absolutely. I mean, I mean, you might you might sing in a performance for an hour and you know, 20 minutes, like you know, there'd probably be an interval or whatever, but you know, an hour and 20 minutes constantly. But you know, it's very rare that that happens in a rehearsal unless it's like a recording session or something like that. As I said, like you know, you're listening to things, you you know, you you work with what you're given in the idea that you hear something, and then okay, let's stop, let's do a little bit of work on this, and you know, okay, that let's hear it again and go forward a little bit further, okay, let's work on this a little bit, you know. So it's always a give and take. Uh it's always a give and take, and there's always there's always that relationship going on constantly in that rehearsal process.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Great. Well, I think this is a great time to ask the question that I tend to ask everyone on the podcast. So if we consider your choir as your environment where all of you are trying to thrive, you as the leader, the choir is the the pieces of that group, what does a psychologically informed environment look like in that context? What are the ingredients that make a successful choral environment from not just a performance perspective, but from an enjoyment and a well-being perspective as well?

SPEAKER_04 52:36

I think that that specific environment, whether it be in a rehearsal or in a performance, I think it needs to have all the right circumstances and conditions need to be present in order to ensure that everybody involved in that creative process or that activity can perform to the best of their ability, I think. And I think if you're aware of that as the leader or the leader or the authority figure, if you're aware of that, then I think that can inform your rehearsals and inform the product that you hear and everybody's enjoyment and well-being.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

What are those ingredients? What are those conditions?

SPEAKER_04 53:21

You've got to make you've got to be able to put people at ease and feel comfortable in their own skin and with the people around them, because it's a very you know, it's a very personal thing, you know, singing in a choir. Your your instrument is your voice and it's part of who you are, you know. So it's very personal, and you need to sympathize and connect and reach out to those personal failities. Failities is that the fragilities? I don't know what the word is, and take people by the hand and take them on a journey.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

There we are. There we go. Take take them on the journey, take them on the journey, put people at ease, make them feel like they want to be there, be empathetic to the fact that their instrument is themselves, and that is a part of who they are. And so that's a very precious and fragile thing that you want to take care of as you as you move towards that shared goal or that performance at the the end of the journey.

SPEAKER_04 54:22

It's interesting. I d I I I don't know in many ways there are no difference between no differences between conducting an orchestra and conducting a choir, but in some ways there are. And you know, what people you know, I might say to people actually, like, you know, don't conduct the choir as if it's you know, don't you, you know, you play an instrument, you play a piano, you know, but don't necessarily play the choir, you know, treat them as human beings and appeal appeal to them as humans. You know, then then you will get get the best out of them, I think.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

Love it. Well, look, Jack, I think we're approaching the end here. Thank you so much for for sharing all of your insights and your experience from your environment, which is a very different one to the environments that have been talked about so far on the podcast. So it's been really, really interesting to see life, to see performance, to see well-being from such a different angle and such a different domain. If people want to follow what you're doing, know more about Jack Appoli and his music, his choirs, hopefully the the choirs that can get going again after lockdown ends, where would they where would they keep up to date with you online?

SPEAKER_04 55:40

Well, I would encourage them to visit my website, jackappely.com, where it's got an events page and lists of everything I'm getting on with. And there's all there's also an avenue for you to get in touch with me that way as well. I'm on Twitter as well, and I tweet quite a lot about what I'm doing and what what's going on. So do follow me on Twitter. That's at J D E Appoli. And yeah, please reach out. It'd be wonderful to speak to people and answer any questions anyone have might have.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

Brilliant. Well, I'll put all of those links in the podcast description so it's easy for people to find out where you are. And well, look, thanks very much again for for spending your time today on the podcast and best of luck with everything through this this period and and beyond.

SPEAKER_04 56:24

Thank you, Pink. I've loved it. Thank you very much.

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_01 56:28

If you're still listening, thanks for sharing another episode of Slice of Pie with me. What a brilliant episode! A completely different performance environment to explore and an eloquent and imaginative guest to take us on a hitchhike through it. There are a couple of things that stood out for me. It might be because I've recently stepped into a new role and a new environment myself, well relatively new. But the first thing that came to mind was imposter syndrome. Jack started conducting choirs when he was just 16. And as a young core conductor, my word, imposter syndrome must be on overdrive, constantly going into new environments with new groups and having to earn the trust and respect of that group, and then slip immediately into the role of authority. I suppose every experienced, wise-looking conductor on BBC Last Night of the Proms at some point in their lives had to be the plucky 16-year-old Jack conducting a choir of singers much older than them, and handling that experience, acknowledging those perceptions might exist, but moving forwards anyway. Secondly, I was really fascinated by the concept of competitive conducting. As someone not au fait with the world of performing arts, this seems so alien to me. And one of the reasons I get fascinated with these types of performance situations is that unlike sport or even in some business occupations, the competitive element is the exception to the norm. And as we discussed, you take tennis for example, who Dahl and Federer make their living from competing. So they get good at building structures that support that, be it pre-performance routines, emotion regulation, visualisation, you know, whatever it is. It's built to underpin the furnace of competition. But there are lots of contexts where performance or competition comes around every so often, like in Jack's domain. Job interviews are another classic one which I've worked on with some clients. The most common thing you hear is, I know my stuff, I'm good at my job, I have great relationships with co-workers and senior management clients and vendors, but I didn't necessarily reflect that in my interview. And that's because you're spending all your time at work, doing work, not practicing for interviews. So situations like the interview or even the conducting competition in Jack's case are kind of a means to an end in Jack's words. So they're temporary, synthetically created conditions in order to test one's skills. And then performing well allows you the opportunity that lies behind it, so in Jack's case, a professional engagement or the job that you're interviewing for. It was also fascinating to hear the transition of the relationships that happen during these competitions as friends and colleagues of Jack become adversaries, which is really interesting. Well, that's it for another episode, hopefully not too long before the next one. But until then, thanks for listening and have a good one.