Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hello and welcome back to the Pi to Pi podcast, where the Pi is the psychologically informed environment, and the mission is to try and further our understanding of what that might look like in sport, in business, or in any environment where performance and well-being are hot topics. It's the fourth episode of 2024, and it's with Dr. Will McConnell, health remote head of psychology at Scottish Golf and lecturer in sports psychology at the University of Stirling. A chartered born excite psychologist to the British Psychological Society. Will has worked with a number of sporting organisations, including Sports Scotland Institute of Sport, Scottish Golf, Scottish Cycling, the Scottish Rugby Union, not Scottish Air Racing Welfare, the National Trainers Federation, the Arsenal FT Psychology Network and Scottish Women's National Volleyball Team. Will is such an affable and engaging guy, someone I've always gravitated to at conferences and enjoyed speaking to. I was really looking forward to this conversation and it didn't disappoint as we traversed the topics of learning a mastery, coaching, and golfer psychological fingerprinting. In fact, the conversation was so good that it ran way over our scheduled time and it's produced a bumper episode. So almost two for the price of one here. You cannot say I don't offer a maiden bargain at five to five. We'll head over to the first key in a second to begin the conversation and then come back up for air at the end of the back nine to reflect on what we talked about at the metaphorical 19th fold. So catch you again in about an hour's time for that. And in the meantime, let's get into it with Dr. Will McConn Halfrieman.

Interview

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Will, good to have you on. How are you? Not too bad. Good to uh chat with you again, Pete. How are things?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Very well, very well. I was excited to have this conversation because I I was speaking to my wife recently about who I was having on next, and I was I was telling her about you and how you were always someone that I gravitated towards at conferences. Just lovely bloke to to speak to, very smart. And you know, it's been been great to see what you've you've gone on to do in terms of the lecturing, your work in golf, etc.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

That's very nice to see. I'm so excited to have the conversation. No, no, brilliant. And likewise, I think we kind of um we find each other, don't we, at conferences, uh Pete, which is which is lovely. And I think it's yeah, it's nice to have people who can bounce off each other. I think that's that's part of it, isn't it? It's part of the fun of what we do is is a connection with others and having those chats, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

That's right. It can be, I think it's been mentioned quite a lot in the sports psychology world. They're obviously the people that work within clubs and teams, but there are also a lot of private practitioners and people working one-to-one, and and therefore it can be a bit of a solitary existence. So the conference allows you to connect with others and kind of get out of your own head a bit and see what other people are thinking or other people are doing.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Yeah, no, I agree. I think you're you're right, there's a lot of people out there doing good work, but I'd say there's you know, maybe maybe as many people doing kind of independent consultancy work, you know, um, alongside working in teams and stuff, and it can be a bit lonely, that's just the nature of consultancy work in general. So, yeah, any opportunity that we get connected, the work you're doing here as well with the podcast, I think that's a really important thing, too, because you know, people feel a connection through that. So, yeah, I think in those situations, um, I think having that connection is important, but maybe as well in teams, too. Um because you might be the only psychologist in an academy, you might be the only psychologist in a squad, so that can be the only two. So, yeah, it's good to have forms of connection and ways of reaching out.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Good stuff. And speaking of connection, if people want to connect with you, whereabout on the interwebs can people link into yourself?

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Yeah, probably LinkedIn is probably the one I main mainly use. I do use X a little bit, formerly known as Twitter. Um, I do use that a little bit too, and I kind of start using a bit more Instagram. I'm trying to start using a bit more Instagram cheap because of golf, it's it's a very Instagram friendly medium, and you know, because you've got a lot of beautiful golf courses out there and a lot of beautiful settings. So I'm trying to use that a little bit more to kind of um articulate to people what what it's like, you know. So um, but yeah, LinkedIn is probably the primary one that I use at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

No, it's interesting that you're saying about Instagram really does lend itself quite well to a nice golf swing, doesn't it? Um there's definitely a few golf influences I've followed over the years where within five seconds you can just see a lovely little swing in a driving range booth somewhere in the world. Yeah, and you know what?

SPEAKER_02 4:50

It's been um not just Instagram but Twitter too, but it's been a look uh, you know, it has been a boon for golf. It's like a park Harrington does lovely like little shorts, you know, he's very passionate about educating about golf in general, you know. Um there's little short uh segments about swing and your course management, stuff like that. So you're right, it's probably made golf so much more accessible, and there is a bit of a I suppose a boom in golf in terms of um people taking up the sport, probably since COVID, too, and that's been sustained. And maybe that's helped it, you know. The accessibility um takes some of the maybe preconceptions about golf out of there as well. So yeah, I think it's been a really useful thing for golf deaf.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah, I always kind of maybe this is a personal thing, just associate golf with the word obsession. I think probably all all sports, if you're you know, if you're really into sport, you can be obsessed with any any sport, but it's probably just growing up with a Scottish father who bought all the golf magazines and has been gradually trying to tick off all the you know the prominent golf courses in the UK. And I think golf and whiskey tours he's been ticking off as well.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

There's I think there's a pretty good combination.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah, I think there's a list of golf courses that are quite close to distilleries that he he's been ticking off. But I suppose you then mix in the the social media era with the ability to then dissect and educate and discuss all of the elements that make up that wonderful game of of golf. It just supercharges it, doesn't it? It takes it to the next level.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah, I I think so. And maybe as you said, it's you talk about obsession there. Maybe it's a no added but golf is not a game of perfect, but it certainly tempts you to be perfect, it certainly entices you to be perfect. So I think it does kind of uh encourage people to be obsessive. I think there's a lot of reward out of that, but yeah, I think social media kind of adds another element to that, and you can be obsessive with other people, just yourself on a course. Yeah, exactly. Which is a game, which isn't gonna be a nice thing.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, follow someone else's journey as well as your own. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Yeah, learn as well. So it's very much a learning sport, it's a it's a high, you know, it's a fine, fine motor skill sport. So um there's so many aspects of the game to master and learn, which makes it makes it extremely challenging and a game for life, you know, it's very awarding. Yeah, but uh, as you say, you have to be very comfortable with learning, and even as a very elite pro, um, I think you have to be very comfortable with learning still. And that that can be, you know, if you're not in the right frame of mind, that can be very um, you know, it can kind of undermine you a little bit because it feels like so much will overwhelm you a little bit because there's so much to learn. But I think if you lean into that and you've got a you know a passion for mastery and process orientation in particular, and to move away from those outcomes a little bit, it is rewarding onto itself. And I think there's been a lot of research done that, but also a lot of anecdotal evidence about that kind of like golf is a mindful activity in itself, if we can if we can get to that place.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

There's a couple of bits I'd like to dig into actually on on that, and it'd be good to discuss your kind of journey into the the world of golf from a sports psychology perspective as well. But just before we do that, do you play yourself? Is this something do you yeah, do you also play as well as kind of work from a consulting perspective?

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Yeah, I do. I kind of'm a weekend hacker at uh at best.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

A weekend hacker, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

At best, but and I and I did like I got in. I was a COVID, I got into it during COVID. But like a lot of people, um uh I didn't work in golf before that, but COVID was really the time that I started kind of picking up a golf club.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

It was like the one sport you could play, it wasn't it exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

And and and Scotland was very progressive about that. A lot of clubs were still open, you know, a lot of driving ranges were still open. And I yeah, I I probably like a lot of people who work and have come to golf a bit later in life. I kind of wish I found it earlier on, but it's allowed me to be a member of a local club for where I'm you know, where I'm uh now living and connecting with others. So yeah, I think it's it's a it's a personal thing to me now as well as as a as a professional side of stuff. Um yeah, and I've got a lot to learn, particularly around the technical, tactical side of stuff. But I enjoy that. And yeah, some days you feel like you've you've mastered it, you got there and everything feels like it's foreign, and then other days you feel like man, this is this is this is really challenging and really difficult. I think I think playing it really helps give a high level of empathy and experiential elements to golf, and that's for a lot of sports, but it's probably very difficult. Like my other work is supposed to done a lot of pieces in has been rugby, yeah. But I'm never going to be able to be on the same courses, or sorry, the same field as a professional rugby player. But the nice thing about golf is that you can play the same courses as you know, elite and professional golfers, and that is an amazing thing. I don't think there's any other sport that perhaps gives you that opportunity. So for me, I it would be a real shame if I didn't play it. I think that would be a failing and just not getting the understanding and not seeing it through those eyes. So yeah, long way from my own personal journey on it. But yeah, it certainly helps, I think, from a little bit of a professional basis to kind of understand the game a little bit, play it a little bit, you know, um, even if it's a very different form of the game than some of the people you're working with, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Yeah, yeah. We might not ever be able to carry the Barry burn, but we might we might we might share the experience of dropping a ball in the Barry Burn. Yeah, well that's yeah, but somebody that's it.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

You you you know, the the pain is probably felt at different levels, you know. You're you're not you're not you're you know, you're maybe your your income is not based on it, but if you have an emotional investment, it might be based on the frustrating and when things are moving forward, and then you go out one day and go, This was this was firing last week, what's going on? And you try to unpick in every way possible, you know, why you know you're turning the ball today, you know. So it it's it's um yeah, I I think it's that gives you a bit of an emotional connection, at least maybe with others, if nothing else.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Brilliant. So speaking of the journey into golf then, how did you find yourself within the the world of golf from a sports psychology perspective? How did that that start?

SPEAKER_02 10:52

I probably came really through the sports Scotland Institute of Sports. Um I worked for them for about three years, and one of the roles within that was an allocation of dates within golf. And I suppose just when I when I I was very fortunate, I suppose, to to get given those days, and that was assigned to Scottish golf at the time, um, to do a certain number of days through an institute. And that that was great. I enjoyed that. Um, like like the demands of every institute, there's only so many days that you can give for sport. Um but for me it was like walking into um a little bit of a treasure trove or kind of library. Golf is probably one of the few sports that has a I suppose a really good back catalogue, a really big depth of psychological um information that flows through it, and an appreciation for psychology too. So for me, it was like walking into a big library and just seeing hundreds and hundreds of books. If you know that kind of image when I found golf in terms of psychology, because you had basically a sport that brought in heavily to psychology and the mental side of the game, and and one that's probably brought bought in for a long time, you know. It's it's um the first books about kind of golf and psychology written back in the 1920s, you know, at basically at the starting point of what we would see as sport psychology, you know. So yeah, for me it was just like finding a treasure trove of of kind of information and connection. Um, but that's kind of how I got into it initially. I I kind of just started in some work and then I left the Institute of Sport and kind of set up some consultancy stuff to the side as well as did some academic stuff and the kind of relationship continued with Scottish Golf, and they wanted me to come back and and yeah, do a bit of consultancy work and a bit of support work um after I left the institute. So it was very much built on relationships. I'd like to think it was built on good work as well, um and rapport. And I'm hoping that you know people kind of saw the passion I had um for the game, the passion I had for the work in particular. I think it's it's about doing good psychology work in golf. I think just having a passion for golf is uh necessary but not sufficient in that sense. Um but uh yeah, so that's kind of that was my journey into it. I was forced up through the Institute of Sport here in Scotland to get those opportunities, those connections.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

That point around having a passion for it yourself. That yeah, I've heard the the two sides of the coin pretty pretty consistently in terms of if you're passionate about something, that's great. You can speak the language, it gives you you know buy-in within certain environments, it allows you to build a rapport with players because you you speak that common language, you can you can drop in things like you know the Barry Byrne or Costantico Rocker, and you know, you can have a a group kind of reminisce or chuckle about it. Um, and then the other side of the coin, you know, you hear, well, if you you're not part of that world, then you bring a fresh perspective and a fresh iron. I can I can see the merits in in both. I've found on a on a personal level, when you speak the language and the the kind of the shared history of the sport that you're working in, that does really help on a one-to-one level, um, specifically, and also from kind of stakeholders within that environment, they can kind of see that you understand the trials and tribulations of it. I mean, I'm interested in in this idea of a treasure trove of literature. I'm thinking of this kind of you know, the Library of Alexandria, this you know, Aladdin's Cave of books. Was it was there anything within the treasure trove that affected you or your perspectives on psychology within golf, particularly? Was there a paper or a book or a particular consultant or researcher that had an impact on you?

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah, I think it's it's it's it's difficult to say. I think the best stuff I have come across has been both psychology orientation and and also um coach orientation, you know. Like I so to give you an example that I I I think Bob Bertella, right? You know, there's a lot of talk about Bob Rotella and golf, but Bob has, I suppose, been he's been so um he's he's caught the attention of so many golfers, you know, and he's worked with so many golfers. You cannot look to someone now. Whether everyone agrees with, you know, his process, you know, every psychologist's got a different process about how to do things, but I think you have to kind of respect his his ability to have a had a grip on the psychology of the game and to also connect to golfers. Yeah, I think that that for me is one of the big things. But you you embrace that same process, you've got different processes, you've got your own style, that's really important. But I think you know, you can't not look to him and be like, wow, that's really not just what he said and his understanding, but also in terms of his his his literature and how he's kind of and he's came through that, you know. He's been working with golfers since the late 70s, yeah, and he's still working with him today. You you gotta respect that. That's just that's just huge. But you've got other stuff in there, like you've got, you know, who I suppose is an interesting person, he's kind of spoken about psychology in different ways in the past, but you've got like a butch Harmon, you know, he's got he's been a pro book, which is a nice reflection. That's a lot about him and his dad, really. But that's that was a lovely piece of literature I thought as well. A lot of golf is a family thing, you know, it's often played by parent and child initially, and it's often the kind of bedrock of a lot of relationships, it's the vehicle for a lot of those relationships. So I think you know, coaches reflecting on some of those psychosocial, maybe a relationship side of stuff's been quite um quite inspirational in ways, too. So I think yeah, I think it's come to a a number of different things. I wouldn't say there's exactly one book within golf that's necessarily done. It's certainly some some um autobiographies have been quite useful, some biographies specifically about literature that have been quite quite useful as well. But I yeah, I think it comes from a myriad of things, and it's trying to see the psychology in golf that's been quite useful for me. So it's taking it from elsewhere, it's the incognito behavior approaches from elsewhere, and go actually how does that apply in the golf boards? Um, I think that's been quite useful thing too. But yeah, I think there's certain stalwarts, both coaches and psychologists who worked in a game a long time that I think you have to go back and and and visit and understand, and also look at their how they connect with golfers because that makes a big difference as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Yeah, it's interesting that you that literature you're talking about is is not just within psychology, it's in neighboring specialisms, it's in coaching, it's in the culture around golf and you know the biograph the biographies and autobiographies. Really interesting element as well. And yeah, good point to shout out the last guest on the podcast, Duncan Simpson, who's doing a great job to decoding and dissecting biographies within sport from a psychological lens. Okay. Um, and I think I think he's done, he might have done one or two golfers actually already. I'm sure it's very fertile ground.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

In terms of the role at Scottish Golf, you know, as much as you're able to, what what does that look like? What are the kind of responsibilities and the the interesting things that you get to do within that role?

SPEAKER_02 17:51

I think I so I when I started off as that kind of role, it was more of a kind of lead psychologist, so it was very much supporting kind of even, you know, it's very much supporting like squads, and there's like four different squads in there, so it's very much kind of squad-based stuff, and also there's individual support on top. And I suppose, you know, even golf coaches will probably attest to this as well. The real gold standard in in golf is probably that one-to-one individual support, often done in combination with the coach. And I've always tried to do that, you know what I mean? But they're often such an integral part, either the head coach for that particular squad within Scottish golf, or the personal coach of the golfer. And that's where you have other dynamics come in there as well, because they might have multiple coaches in that sense, and yeah, a lot of challenges around maintaining that. So that would have been, I suppose, the kind of foundation, but that's expanded, I suppose, over the last year, year and a half, to kind of more strategic focus as well. So, one of those things around pathway development, so kind of looking at strategic focus around well, what do we want different golfers? What kind of you know, psychological competencies that we want golfers are different ages and stages as they move through the pathway, so more that kind of strategic direction, trying to put in more of a long-term focus. Um, also some stuff around mental uh mental health um support as well. And that's I suppose the big thing there is like obviously as born excess psychologists, we're not you know clinical or counseling psychologists, but we're trying to create conducive uh environments towards mental health, you know, and mental health and ill health prevention. So more of a focus around, you know, how do we coordinate that? How do we maybe look at you know at its screen? A lot of this has been done in conjunction, if I'll be honest, with the with the Sports Scotland Institute of Sport, they've been fantastic in supporting uh Scottish golf with this and looking at how we might expand that. Um so trying to look at maybe some strategic support around that as well, and also some stuff around families. So at the moment, we're having conversations about how we kind of um engage with parents further, how we how we look at maybe that developmental piece in terms of supporting parents and wider family members to support the golf for themselves. I said golf is a is a very family sport, and you know, you often come across it's quite common in Scotland actually to come across you know brothers or brother and sister who play high-level golf, elite golf, and their their parents might play it, maybe dad or mum plays it to a high level as well. So you get golf in the family, especially when in Scotland, not the biggest places, maybe as England, and um you know, you you also get a lot of you know, golf is a national game here, so you get a huge amount of intensity and obsession and and social status from playing the sport as well. So yeah, there is that element I think um we're trying to focus on a bit more on how we do that. So so a lot going on. It's you know, we'd like to you always want more time, you always want more resources. I think every person has a head of psychology role in any shape or form wants that. There's a lot of good work being done, and I think having that strategic focus over maybe you know next five years in particular for us is a good way to go because at least it means we're not trying to do everything today, but we're trying to push it towards uh you know what what does it look like in five years or ten years? I think that makes a difference in terms of you know Scotland's reputation on the world stage, but also I think in terms of just you know, the golfers out there, the young golfers developing to the pathway and what they enjoy their sport. I think that's a really important thing too.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah, there's a lot, a lot going on there in terms of the strategic focus, the pathways, yeah, even just kind of plotting out from the literature within sports, golf, and psychology in terms of what competencies do you want to have at each level as well. So I imagine that's also looking at experience and literature within you know what athletes at different ages can kind of handle in terms of kind of psychological work and um the environmental stuff, mental health, support around families. So yeah, it's absolutely fantastic to hear and and see it sounds super holistic. I suppose something I'm interested in here is you you you mentioned you started off mainly supporting squads and a lot of that on the individual level working one to one. Yeah. You think all of those hours doing that were necessary or important for when you then moved up the chain, so to speak, to work on the Strategic stuff. Do you think that provided a good foundation of knowledge, of experience within how psychology manifests on a one-to-one level before you start doing the strategic stuff? Or do you or do you think that's just kind of coincidence or that's just how it happened for you?

SPEAKER_02 22:14

I I I think it's an interesting one because you know, how would you put this? So I I I kind of my perspective, I believe like we have modalities of psychology that we can use. You know, you can bring in kind of behavioral approaches, you can bring in person-centered, humanistic, however you want to title some of that stuff in a process. But I do believe that every sport has its own psychological fingerprint.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

It's got its own certain demands, it's got its own certain history, it's got its own culture. And it's it's a bit like any industry, you know. You know, you go out and you work in the workplace generally, and every industry will have its own psychological fingerprint, not just in terms of culture, but in terms of how people like a mental model, if you want to call it that, about how people operate within that sport. And I think understanding that is quite a quite an important thing. And like for me when I started, like one of the big inspirations for me, you know, he said he passed away now, was Professor Aiden Moore at UCD. And he kind of articulated for me, you know, I studied under him at that time, just as an undergrad, but um he articulated really what the psychological uh demands of golf were. So he broke that down, he wrote lovely stuff about concentration, um, you know, attentional elements, etc. So I think that I think we need to pay a bit more heed to that, if I'll be honest, which you know, within different sports. I think we sometimes can see sports as a generic concept, but actually they're industries within within sport, and we kind of have to understand. So to come back to your question, I think having a grounding in the industry in some format, you know, and working with golfers and understanding the challenges they face certainly helps. I think it's what you do need to understand, okay, what are the kind of demands they might face. So you're talking example of that. Um, you know, within golf, for example, because of the proliferation of Bob Rutella and the work that he's done, a lot of people will have read, you know, golf is not a game of perfect. They might have read that at 14. Yeah, yeah. So there's already a fairly good psychological awareness, but you also need to know what the gaps in what Bob is saying. Bob obviously done uh a huge amount of work on other people as well, but I think in understanding the influences of psychology into a particular industry or sport and what level it's worked at, the connection it's had, that's a really important thing because you might include different things at different levels in relation to that as well. Because some of that might be that they have more knowledge. So, for example, around like individual, if you want to call them individual mental skills, a lot of golfers kind of get that in truth from quite a young age. Coaches have a huge amount to coaching. A huge amount of coaches are you know have done a lot of psychology work, very, very good uh, you know, psychologists without being chartered, if you know what I mean, without being professionals, they've done a lot of work because they see it as so important. So the huge amount of psychology is coming through them already.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah, I mean, the amount the amount of coaches in tennis, golf, other sports like that that are doing pre-performance routines, for example, yeah, um, from such a young age, very little of that is probably being done by psychologists at the kind of the youth level because that's such part and parcel of the sports now, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:24

I I think that's it. I I think the so coaches have been a lot of that heavy lifting already. So you might not need to bring in a lot of that, but certainly from a Scottish, you know, from a Scottish golf perspective, the main thing that players work towards from the amateur side of things is actually squads. Yeah, it's been part of a team. And so we've got to Europeans to go to home internationals and ideas that they perform at that stage. So teamwork, like team identity, how you work together and what that looks like in golf, or what leadership looks like in golf, is quite a foreign concept because I've never had to do it compared to say football or rugby, yeah, where it might come through that tread more so. So you might be like some of the work that might initially start a lot of us about like would sound a bit strange for golf as a starting point, but it's based on an easy Scottish golf, it's actually about team identity. Who are we? You know, as a squad, how does what does team look like from a Scottish golf perspective? How do we try and improve that? And that comes in as well in some of the plays, like because you're playing Forsams, which is you know, like a like a pairing, essentially, and that is teamwork on a course. Yep, but that mightn't be explored that much because golfers probably don't necessarily always play foresomes that much. So there's certain things that they will have a lot of individual skills, you know, like you know, every golfer will be able to walk you through their pre-shot routine, no problem, you know. So, and they will talk about swing talks, they'll talk about cue words, they'll talk about you know, uh think box, play box. That you know, they're fairly upskilled on this side of stuff, where they might struggle more with is about how to integrate into a squad, how do I integrate into a team, you know, that we go out and function across some number of days together under difficult circumstances.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Uh, but I hadn't I hadn't really considered that in in an individual sport like that. How yeah, you might uh this goes back to the psychological fingerprint mental model point that you were making before. Yeah. There's probably so much onus on things like recovering from disappointment, yeah, focusing attention, being consistent with your routines. Because that's not such part and parcel of the sport. That's probably something that you are quite well exposed to. But because it's an individual sport, you are probably not exposed to a huge amount of need to talk about leadership or be a leader until you get to a certain point. And then that becomes a blind spot that a sports psychologist can help work on. So that's that's interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

But also it it changes. Like the weird thing about it is like from a government body perspective. So this is English golf, golf Ireland, Scottish golf, what they want to do is obviously you know do well from a squad-based perspective. And also amateurs might be involved in things like the Walker Cup, Curtis Cup as well. Um that's really important. The thing about it obviously for golfers, it's a bit of a it's a bit of a kind of tension in there because obviously they want to play in those teams. And you speak to golfers, they'll a lot of them love team golf, they love being part of a team. It's you know, they really enjoy it, they love being around other golfers that are on, you know, that are working with them, they're not their competitors. Yeah, um, they really enjoy that side of stuff. But obviously, the challenge is that when you turn pro, you're probably unlikely to ever be part of a team again. Really, you know, there is some opportunities. You obviously with the Ryder Cup and the Solheim, yeah, but the chances of most golfers getting into those things are very, very small. And there's other opportunities that crop up, but even then they're few and far between. So it's like it's attention in what I'm trying to do, um, P, because on the one hand, you're trying to make sure that we do that squad stuff, we do that team-based stuff, the collective stuff, because that meets the needs of the government body, it meets the needs of the teams, it meets the needs of the coaches. We also have to be doing all that individual work as well, because that's the one that will help them move their trajectory to the sport. A lot of them want to be pro golfers, that's understandable. Yeah, so there's always a bit of attention that you're trying to achieve. Of course, one does complement the other, you know. If you know how to build up good relationships by being part of a team, you're probably going to build up good relationships with your management company, you know, with your strength conditioning coach when you're pro. So they are transferable, but you have to make sure you point that out to some golfers because they're not always intuitive. You kind of embrace the squad behind it go, look, being good at relationships will help you as a professional golfer as much as it will help you in this team environment now at this moment in time, too. So it's just but there's always a bit of a tension there, and I understand it from a golfer's perspective as well, because most of our ambitions is to you know to play play in the top tours, you know, maybe in the female top tours. So I can understand why they would want those skills too and want to enhance that. So we're always trying to stay with that tension.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah, this yes goes back to your point at the start around learning team skills, but the individual skills and skills that you thought you'd learnt when you were six or seven in terms of a pre-performance routine is is there still tweaks and improvements that we can make to that based on lived lived experience and what's happening in the literature and what feels right.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

People forget stuff as well. You know, people will have learned stuff and they forget it, or they maybe it's always been there and they dismiss it. Or yeah, one of the big things a lot of individual work, we talk about golfers, we do post-shot routines. We don't look at or sorry, pre-shot routines, we don't always necessarily look at what happens after the shot. You know, how they deal with what happens between shots. Um so there's a lot more, you know, doing work with a golf at the moment and trying to about, you know, when to basically have golf and no golf is what we're calling it, just in terms of switching on and off attention between, you know, um, because only about 10% of the time you're actually hitting the ball. So it's a lot of time to think.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

A lot of time to think, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

A lot of time to think. So knowing how to fill up some of that time um or manage maybe some of the thinking powers that crop up during that time is is is a big strategy in itself.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Could end up being a strange tangent, but in the the Red Bull World Cliff Diving Championships, there was a in the very early years of of that, there was a guy from the UK that was pro prolific, won it all the time. And he was really good at juggling. Yeah, because you you spend so much time waiting for the other people to dive, and then you have to then walk up you know, a big cliff basically to then jump off of it. Yeah, he would just spend all of his time in between his dives juggling because it would take him into that inverted commas flow state where you're kind of thinking but not thinking. But yeah, yeah, I've I've heard this a lot about golf. You know, you're out in the course for hours and you know, you you only actually are striking a ball for a very tiny percentage of that. So being able to just manage your own kind of mental fitness and ability to turn turn on concentration and off concentration, it's a yeah, fascinating aspect of that sport. Talk again again, going back to the the fingerprint.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

It's just exhausting. Yeah, and like if you're and some golfers will maintain 26 holes in one day, you know, well, that is that is the problem, you know, top the toughest days in golf and they are in a couple of years.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Yeah, us our hackers will think, yeah, 18 18 holes, which takes us five and a half hours is exhausting, you know, try 36 hours.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

It is just yeah, you have to go again, you know, and this is this is the the challenging thing with that, and how you maintain it's I suppose it's not even like a lot of stuff kind of look at as you know, is is distorted thinking, you know, that creeps in and unhelpful thinking thoughts that you're automatic negative thoughts that might creep in there as well, and how they might be challenged. And some of that, you know, it depends on the person as well, but I think those moments some of that can be challenged, yeah, you know, through you know alternative thinking patterns, etc. But some of it is behavioral. They need to be doing something with their time. Um, like that example of the juggling, they need to have something that occupies their body. But but unlike maybe perhaps juggling, you can't do that, you know, you can't be constantly doing something physical across 36 holes. So you have to have other ways of being able to deal with it, you know. Like for example of that, you know, we often talk some of the talk with a golf recently, but a rugby player used to do crossword puzzles before he used to go in the field. And it was just a way of distraction, you know, it's a way of occupying your thoughts and stop the negative thoughts creeping in. But then we have to we have to deal with the negative thoughts. Yeah, we can distract ourselves with other things, but it probably is better if you can chase down some of the negative thoughts and confront them as well, because it's very hard to keep ourselves occupied over that amount of time, and that takes a lot of hard work from people and a lot of investment um as well. So, yeah, I think it it again this comes back to yeah, what we were saying earlier on about the sport and fingerprints. It's just the time out there and the the demands of it means that you probably won't be able to do crossword puzzles for 36 hold or juggle for 36 hold. Um, this is this is where like be able to regulate your thoughts is a really key thing, and also using that time wisely to your benefit, so not just using it for distraction, but using maybe to be able to strategically plan, to be able to impact your mood, to visualize when you need to visualize, to use your imagination when you need to use your imagination so you can grow creativity, which is a huge thing as a shot maker. It's trying to not just have distraction, but trying to be productive when you need to be productive, which are thinking strategically.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

That's interesting. Yeah, I think it it'd be a pretty easy way to go viral, I think, if you're a new golfer coming onto the the scene now and you decided to use juggling or cross-word puzzles in between yeah, in between holes. But um, there's there's one there's you know one thing that I'm interested in in kind of diverting to here, based off a couple of points that you made, one around learning and what and one around uh unhelpful thinking and active automatic thoughts that might crop up. And it's related to I don't know whether you've you've read uh Dave Orrid's book on the performance principle. Yeah. You know, for those listening who are not aware of Dave Ord, he originally worked with Johnny Wilkinson on his his kicking, then moved in into golf. And he written a very digestible book on approach to kind of performing, you know, whether it's it's in sport or or otherwise, uh very simple model, yeah, which actually kind of impacted me quite a lot on a personal level. I've never used it kind of professionally, but this idea that you spend a chunk of time kind of learning or reworking or kind of working on the mechanics of something that you do, then that middle third where you're practicing those mechanics, you're getting your reps in, and then that final third of just right, put everything out of your mind and just perform.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

And I still use this now, even when I play my old dad by the side on a Tuesday night. If I catch myself thinking too much about technique or how I'm doing something, I just tell myself, look, now's not the time to be thinking about whether you're getting your knee over the ball or how you're striking a football. You it's in there somewhere. Just focus on the game, focus on the ball, just let yourself go. Um and I I thought I thought that was a kind of an interesting piece of literature that he put out there. Um, and I just, yeah, regardless of the scientific equity of it or or whatever, I wonder whether you kind of recognize any of those themes when it comes to when to learn, when to put it out of your mind, yeah, um, how that interacts with your performance.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Yeah, I think I think that's a really kind of crucial thing. I guess what the phrase I use in golf a lot of it is the danger of coaching yourself over the ball, you know, and that I think I think the learning, this is where it kind of becomes like a flip side of the drive for learning is great, right? Yes, we all learn, but we have to kind of understand what is the need that is driving, you know, that what is the force behind that. And if it's we want to go from a mastery side of perspective, so you want that we want to learn this because learning something gives me an intrinsic reward and you have to a real benefit, and it's a lovely thing. But if you kind of want to learn something because you've maybe come in from highly perfectionist tendencies or from you know a self-esteem issue, and you want to learn it because you know, if I don't learn, if I don't improve, I'm somehow failing. That's a different issue. And I think that's where you have to split between the two. So, you know, in relation to all what you're saying with David, I think it's it's the it's recognizing and spotting that because people have a habit to to to try and learn as they compete. So it's a good example of that. Sometimes something might not be functioning. They might have a big weapon, they might be brilliant at driving off the T, and they have a few shots off the T that are not going the way they want to do, and they might panic a little bit, so we've got a panic cycle in there, and then also they might try and fix it, which is a really dangerous thing. So they might think, okay, I'm gonna try and fix this now. Now, fixing it can look different things. They might have a certain stock shot they go back to, and that's fine, that might be an appropriate way. But if they start to fix it from a technique perspective, I think where is my my shoulder, where's my arm, where's my where's my you know, all those kind of things in terms of the actual technique, yeah, we know is you're gonna consciously process that skill and it's gonna deteriorate. So this is where there's knowing there's a time, and however golfers want to do that, but visualizing a time between when I'm training and practicing and when I am fixing, and when I'm just competing, and I got a goal. Like, you know, a lot of golf people talk about I need to be able to go out there and just go what I've got. You know, to play good enough golf, not perfect golf, being able to go out there, okay. This is what I've got in my in my tool bag. Um, hopefully, all that will work, some of it might not work, some of them I might have to play around with this, but it's being good enough rather than trying to play perfect golf. This kind of gets back to the what Bob Bertolette was trying to get on about a little bit too. But I think it's known when to be able to package that. So when am I practicing and training? When am I competing? And Ben Hogan spoke about this years ago in terms of golf. There's very they're very different things, you know. Practice golf and competing golf are very different things and and need a different psychological outlook as well. Um, so yeah, like so you talk about stuff about how we place a golf in a or a technique in a in a bag and leave it in the hotel room, and we come back and revisit it afterwards. And you might show the stuff into that bag as well. You might have other things around like judgment, you might have other things around like you know, self-recrimination. You need a big bag. Yeah, it's a big bag. For some people, it's quite easy to put those things in. I think that's that's the competitive streak. They can go out there and it's like when you make a mistake, you're not gonna judge yourself. You just have practical coping mechanisms in terms of how you deal with that, but it's the emotional response to those mistakes that are often the problem. So you're right about cutting it up, you know, it's a time to practice and time to compete. But I think it's also the nuance of that, so brilliant what they've all really seen, but the nuances of that within the sport can vary and how they understand this. And also, as you said, if you know, we're talking about if it's only you're only hitting the ball 10% of the time, that's a very different thing for mugby, where really it's only, for example, and I know he's more to go, but just use an example like things like we have kicking or line outs, where that's more the time to think uh a bit more. So I think it is again coming back to how the how the spore processes that a little bit too. Yeah. So it's a bit of a roundabout answer, Pete, for what you asked, but no, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

No, and that that was the purpose of the question, was to try and dig into that. And I I love the this anecdote around throwing things in the bag and and leaving it in the the hotel room and and also the the nuances between how you know different players find that easier or or more difficult to do. So, yeah, uh very, very interesting to to hear that. Just to pivot to the the last well, what's the golf analogy here? Well, we're definitely on the back nine or already. The home the home stretch, yeah. I'm thinking of the the par four at St Andrews, you know, we're just kind of teeing off uh on on the 18th and hopefully getting to the green and one to give ourselves a nice opportunity. Yeah, yeah, we don't we don't want to be at the bottom of the hill um where Costantino Roca was, but um we'll yeah exactly. Um the psychologically informed environment. I I think you've you've already given some really interesting perspectives on that in terms of the the widest, the strategic stuff that you've been doing in your role with the Scottish Golf Association. Um, but is there anything else that you'd want to build on on that, what you you described before? Because I think there's a a lot in there that would certainly tick the boxes of um getting at a psychologically informed environment, stuff that you're doing with families, mental health, plotting out competencies for golfers. But is there anything else in your role that that you think you know kind of adds to a psychologically informed environment, or do you have a perspective on what a psychologically informed environment is?

SPEAKER_02 41:53

I I think um I think it's probably more reflection than anything, Pete. But um, Don Shawn, you know, wrote reflective practitioner years ago, kind of gave us in that heading that we should be aware of the messy swamp lands of practice. And I think there's a lot of talk within sport and exercise psychology about environments and that element and systematic and systems approaches, but I think the context on what which a lot of those are delivered are delivered in a closed house. So, what I mean by that, put in a an academy, a football club, within a particularly housed squad or team, so you probably have a more physical environment. The problem you have from a golfing perspective is that golfers are more like a diaspora, you know, and I often think it's a bit like the going back to my heritage here, but like the Irish population around the world, they're not, you know, they're not always all Irish citizens, you know. When you mean you become an Irish, you know, you're born to an Irish parent, you become an Irish citizen. This tangent has a purpose, right? But it it means that there's lots of Irish citizens, a lot of Irish citizens around the world. They're a diaspora, yeah. But golfers are the same, especially at the amateur level. So you're dealing with people, they're not we're not coming together under the one house. That is a very difficult thing to do because they're located geographically all around Scotland. There might even be some of them because of their parental heritage, they might be based abroad anyway, and a lot of them are based in states, yeah. So you have a diaspora, you don't see the most of a psychologically informed environment, it becomes more of an abstract concept than it does maybe in a in Premier League Academy because it you talk you're dealing with people across the world and multiple influences. So if you have someone who's playing varsity golf in Texas, the most important person there is going to be that head coach of that you know that golf team. But they're still affiliated to Scottish golf, they still play under that banner when they come to represent you know squads, etc. So the idea of environment as housed is a problematic thing for me because you don't have that control. There's lots of the people involved, there's lots of different uh stakeholders who might not always speak to each other. Yeah, and this is where it kind of interesting. So when we talk about environment, really it gets reduced down to relationships in terms of strength of relationship and how you maintain them. So you might have a golfer in in the States, you know, if they're out there maybe nine, ten months of the year, how do you try and have a relationship with someone that they feel part of the Scottish golf system and feel supported from a psychological perspective to that system, even though they're based in America? That's the kind of nuances. So I often think we look at environment people have the kind of a mental representation, image in their head that it's under one location. But actually it's not about that. It's about the strength of relationship, the strength of weak ties, as Ranaver told you know, spoke years ago, you know, about that's really important. How do we strengthen those ties more so that they feel connection when needed? They can pick up a phone, they can seek out resources, how we build trust so that even though they're their side of the world, if Philfield can pick up the phone to myself or a performance manager and have an open conversation with them. It's really reduced down to relationships. A lot of organizations are I don't mean to be trite by saying that it's all about relationships and be symptomatic. That's a usually problematic thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

But I just think in in a psychological and foreign environment with golf, it is really crucial because you might not physically see them. You just might not for a large portion of the year. And that also changes because that means when the for example when the guys in the States are back in Scotland, there's a big onus in us to see them. So that changes the dynamics as well about how you prioritize people across the year. So you might go well you work more with the guys based in Scotland through the winter months because around when you know the USA guys come back gives it a bit more time to invest and support them. So you're trying to have almost like a psychological tape or psychological structure across the season that's based around people's physical presence as well as you know trying to contact with them online etc. So you have all these kind of nuances and I just feel that when people talk about you know in informed environments and stuff I I don't I'm not fully sure all those nuances come out. And actually that's the difficult bit. You know we can talk about you know putting in place structures and systems but it's it's really the the proof of the of the theoretical pudding is in its practical eating. It's when it hits the kind of the day-to-day work and also the location of players that's when it comes into its own so I I think everyone would agree from a cultural perspective from a workplace perspective having an environment that's psychologically safe and that's structured that's informed that has lots of kind of intricacies in terms of connection between parents and players and support but yeah we all want that but actually when we hit the kind of reality stuff in terms of funding allocation location of players that's the very the the learning happens for me does that make does that make sense what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Yeah it does make sense yeah I I love this perspective of the kind of the diaspora and and how that quite often is your environment even if it's not a a physical place and and that's the reality between different types of businesses and and different types of sports is you know some do operate within that physical environment every day some are hybrid some are are are kind of a lot more dispersed or or remote like in this environment and I think what you're you're saying at the end there in terms of the theory hitting practice that's when the learning happens and just speaking to Duncan in in the last episode makes me kind of think of this off the top of my head but you know he talked a lot about the feedback loop between what they were doing and then it it coming back either by his student population or parents and it was quite often those feedback nuggets that precipitated some of the changes that had the real impact. And it's it's almost the kind of the loop that that learning into practice that manifests a psychologically informed environment over time not just the initial plan and then just hoping that that initial plan is going to work.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

And do you know I kind of love you speaking about loops as well I think Chris Ardus's work in the past about you know single and triple loop learning and what that looks like you know kind of reflection on reflection a little bit but I think kind of you know within applied sports psychology we do have to start we're talking about psychology and foreign environment we do have to start looking at how other businesses do it. That's really what's happening you're talking about that you know talking about that diaspora golfers but most modern forms of work and you know this very well you work in in in numerous industries as well most modern forms of working are now a diaspora you know and how companies deal with that you might have bases in Dubai you might have bases in the States and trying to get people to work together and be supported I think there's a lot of learning that we can take from that work outside of support if you don't want to become just kind of a um uh you know kind of an insular um way of looking at things I think there's so much we can take from that too uh in how that work is done.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Brilliant amen and um that's yeah that's a a big big part of why I like to speak to people in in so many different worlds and and environments and I suppose this links nicely to the last question which is around taking learning or taking inspiration from different areas something I'm asking everyone now on like a a sports psychology magpie. Like a podcaster magpie collecting all of these these assets, these shreds of information is there a book a podcast a movie or TV show that has impacted you personally or professionally either throughout your career or or recently?

SPEAKER_02 49:21

So yeah I think that for me the the thing that stands out and it's probably something that's stood a test of time right from my undergrad days is is a film called Who Dreams and a documentary about young lads basically coming from a fairly impoverished background in the States trying to make it to the NBA and um because why it stood out is of its time it was very much a kind of personal documentary that looked at their family their family circumstances and it was filmed in real time you know it's those guys were moving from high school to kind of trying to collegiate basketball challenges around that. So I suppose before you had a lot of Netflix series and stuff pretty much 30 years ago there was a lot of informed pieces coming through what was essentially a kind of a you know a social or or um a social kind of documentary about people trying to make it into the NBA in the States I think the the reason it hit home for me you know I'm not gonna not ruin it for people but obviously there's a lot of sadness involved and there's a lot of fit a lot of failure involved on that kind of side of stuff and there is an every journal it's a very human story it really illustrates the humanity as sport. I think that's why so many of us are involved in it from a psychology perspective because it does have a rich colourful rainbow of that humanity just come out I think so in in so many ways through sport. But for me it kind of highlighted the mix of emotions it what stood me as an undergrad it kind of highlights you know resonated with me the sadness and the mix of emotions and also that investment you know the hopes that are you know it's called hoop dreams for a reason the hopes that not just players invest but parents you know you know if their child makes it on the NBA it's not just that they succeed everyone succeeds and the pressure that comes with that and expectations and the desire to be a success and and the chances are so slim. You know from that kind of you know it's well less than one percent and people make it into that kind of level even from the varsity system in the States and you know MBA or or NFL etc so these guys are gambling like usually they're going into the casino for all the emotional money on black essentially and hopefully pays off. To understand that thinking and how people approach you from that way is just really essential and not to judge it or dismiss it but this is what people are trying to do. How do we what's our role in this as psychologists? What's our ethical role what's our moral role what's our practical role you know in terms of trying to support people and help them understand that journey so I suppose it always left a mark on me at the time because it it kind of it showed that messy world that we were talking about it showed the the difficult practical circumstances rather than necessarily the theory or often the fantasy I think yeah we can get very theory eyed romantic sometimes about an exercise psychology and success and actually attacks to success and all of that. But actually it's it's like any industry or human endeavor there's a range of emotions and outcomes there and we have to be comfortable with them. So I think it's just it was a healthy dose of realism because it was obviously a documentary and it was filmed over time as well. So yeah it's definitely stood the test of time in terms of leaving a mark on it. Brilliant hoop dreams right everyone write that down watch it definitely let's let's you can get an English even available on YouTube now so they don't even have the paper anymore and we just want to kind of go up and excellent and it's free as well there you go I don't know how much it's longer but it is about an hour and a half if you're a psychologist for a psychological two massive tick boxes.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Relatively short on YouTube and free where you go yeah good stuff the storytelling aspect that that comes out of US sports and like you said the investment of the entire families and how it you know is actually just more than just that that one career there's a satellite of families around it there's a a documentary on Jerome Bettis who is a running back for the Pittsburgh Steelers which is also on YouTube. It's one of the an NFL life documentaries about half an hour 40 minutes and just the relationship with him and his mum is the consistent theme through the whole thing just the ability to give her a a better life through his his career was probably the single thing he was most proud of and you could yeah you see that in a lot of though those kind of US sports storytelling which kind of layers on a another another level of of emotion to to some of this kind of sports storytelling. But um yeah thank you so much for sharing that and and thank you in general for the the conversation uh as I thought it was going to be it was it really delivered in terms of kind of insight and and interest and again Will thank you so much for giving up your time to help share all of that with the listeners of the podcast I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

No a real pleasure to come on Pete and uh yeah thanks for having me basically good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Well good luck with the the rest of the year and uh yeah I hope your next outing on the golf course is a successful one.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

Do you know what Pete if it's a dry if it's dry or sunny that's a successful day here in Scotland. So uh yeah no it's all it's always good. Look it's it's a pleasure for me to be out there. So uh yeah uh as long as you keep trying everything's good.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Good stuff. Thanks Will cheers

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_00 54:16

thanks Pete well what a cracking conversation with Will there and listening back to it again I am struck by his easy and affable way of eloquently describing his experiences and insights from the world of psychology and golf. There was so much to dig into here but one thing I'm going to focus on is this notion that every sport has its own psychological fingerprint, that each sport's demand, culture and machinations provide a blueprint for the types of psychological skills required and therefore the types of work and interventions that might be needed in that sport. And it's something that I've been considering for a while but I've never really come across this conceptualization of this as a psychological fingerprint which I absolutely love and I think it throws up interesting conversations around the necessity for sports psychologists or just any applied practitioners in the world of sport to know about the the sport that they are working with. As I said in the interview with Will I've always encountered two sides of this argument either number one you're fluent in the sport's nuances and language and challenges which is helpful for building rapport and credibility in the eyes of athletes coaches and stakeholders or number two the flip side you are completely new to the sport and because you're new you are able to come at challenges from a fresh perspective without being burdened by any assumptions or previous knowledge that might blind you from fresh thinking or innovation or perhaps you're coming from a completely different area of performance or wellbeing and you're able to cross pollinate thinking from other domains or other environments into this new environment which might not have been open to it before. So I've always seen the merit in both perspectives. But I think Will's psychological fingerprint and our forays into neighbouring topics like playing the sport yourself, being integrated into the culture taking the time to learn the sports challenges has possibly persuaded me a bit further into this first camp. And reflecting on my own experiences working one-to-one with Florence having a fluency in the sports language history and challenges has really helped me to build rapport with athletes and coaches and even when I've been new to a sport for example underwater hockey or ultimate frisbee being some of my favourite examples I've put in really a decent number of hours watching matches on YouTube, exploring Wikipedia talking to athletes and coaches and really putting the effort into understanding the sport. Not to feign or fake an expertise in it I'm really open that I'm new to it but at least showing a passion for this new sport and communicating to my clients that even if I'm new I can put in the effort to learn the basic lingo and show a passion for the thing that they are passionate about. But slingshotting away from anecdotal personal experiences to the applied practice literature it does seem that understanding the psychological fingerprint of the sport is beneficial. So if we take for example since this conversation I've been perusing Woolway and Harvard's excellent 2020 review of literature exploring the beneficial characteristics of sports bipology practitioners through the eyes of clients so athletes, coaches etc and I've left a link to that paper in the show notes and in it they include sport specific knowledge as one of the key ingredients that cropped up consistently in the 17 studies they reviewed. Now how is sport specific knowledge defined? Well early definitions inherently linked it to a practitioner having an athletic background themselves but in more recent studies like Woolway and Harwood in 2015 it is more clearly defined as the practitioner's ability to speak your sports language and the depth of his or her knowledge in both the demands of the sport and the specific mental skills required for development and performance. Now this definition sounds very very close to what Will was talking about in the episode and his formulation and articulation of it as a psychological fingerprint. Now interestingly the paper also notes another paper by Lubker and colleagues in 2008 that found sports knowledge is rated significantly higher by athletes than sport psychology consultants themselves. Now this study is 16 years old now and things might have changed a bit but it does suggest perhaps us consultants might underestimate the importance of sport specific knowledge. Again I've left the links to all of these studies I mentioned in the description if helpful. And speaking of links I've started getting into Will's suggested film Hook Dreams which indeed is totally free to access on YouTube. So I've left a link to this as well as my own personal favourite US sports biography vignette of running back Jerome the Bust better. So when you finish this episode make sure to cue those up at some point. So there you go a nice long detailed reflection on this episode embodying my enjoyment of this conversation with Will make sure you give him a follow in the different places he can be found on the internet and he's also written a fantastic article in the Psychologist this year about Psychology and Golf with the delicious title the five inch course so please give that a read as well link in description. So that's it for now and probably that's it for 2024. Four episodes this year not too bad given our family has added a baby daughter in February and juggling post charter ship demands with a day job, two kids a dog, 40th birthday celebrations and a whole lot more I've got a few more guests in the pipeline so let's see if we can up that to around six to eight episodes in 2025. Anyway if you have been thanks for listening