Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello and welcome back to the Slice of Pie podcast, where the pie is the psychologically informed environment, and the mission is to try and further our understanding of what that might look like in sport, business, or in any environment where performance and well-being are hot topics. In this episode, I have the pleasure of getting to speak to, for me, one of those people in life you meet, you just can't wait to talk to again, and it's Dr. Martin Turner, a warm and giving person, knowledgeable and impressively well read, and despite his numerous papers, books, and achievements, such a humble and self-effacing bloke as well. I did a CPD course with himself and Dr. Andrew Wood earlier this year, and both of them are just so brilliant at taking the tension out of a setting, making people feel relaxed, willing to laugh at themselves, and just brilliant at creating a positive and curious environment. I came in of this one with pages and pages and pages of notes. So it's taken me a little while to synthesize it all and write a reflection befitting of the conversation and Martin's insight. So stay tuned for that reflection in around 50 minutes' time. But in the meantime, let's get into the episode with Dr. Martin Turner. Martin, good to have you on again. Thanks so much for joining. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Hey Pete, yeah, good to be back. All good.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Excited to get into another conversation with you. Good stuff. We we dug into a few things last time on REBT, but I did reflect that there were so many other doorways and avenues to go down. And you very kindly sent me a copy of the Rational Practitioner. And I've been digging around on the chapter on goals, which is just fascinating. So perhaps we can dig into the subject of goals today, if that's okay. Sounds good. You know, going into that project.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

One of my intentions was to map out the framework from G all the way through to E. But you often see you often see A, B, C, D, E in the G is missing. The G is kind of like implied, but I wanted to do more work around G that maybe Ellis didn't do so much in his writing. So yeah, I think it's probably in that book, probably the most expansive writing there is on the G of that framework, if you like.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

And there are different types of Gs, right? There's a little key in the book that denotes different types of Gs. Am I remembering that right?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yes, yeah. I mean, broadly, it's like kind of from superficial to deep. People have used lots of ways to communicate that. And I think we all know it when we're when we when we're kind of setting our goals or thinking about our goals. There are some goals that are on the on the, you know, that are superficially there for us. But then there's these deeper drives that we have, these deeper goals and values that we have. So when we talk about G in RBT, it's really those deeper kind of value-based goals that we're that we're speaking about. And and when something blocks those deeper goals, that's when we experience those intense negative emotions, if you like.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

How do we how do we know if something's a superficial or a deep goal? And how do we know if I'm imposing my view of the world on someone by labelling their goal superficial? If they want to if they want to get a promotion and earn a certain amount of money and have a corner office, and I deem that to be a fairly superficial goal, but to them that's very important. How do how do we pass through that, the kind of the difference between superficial and deep, but also people's different perspectives on what those might be?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

So usually with these goals that seem superficial because they're kind of say externally relevant or externally judged, like a promotion or a pay rise or obtaining something material. Yes, it that is on the superficial end. But it but it's usually related to a deeper goal, or it can often be related to a deeper goal. So when you work with somebody, what you're trying to do is figure out what is the real why for for what you know, what is the real purpose of them wanting that thing. And maybe it's so you know I can provide better for my family. And again, you're into a deeper why. Why would you want to do that? Well, I see it as part of my role, and that's a value that I hold quite deeply. Now, the reason that's important is because when something stops you from getting that material object or stops you from getting that promotion, it's it's usually not not getting the promotion that triggers those intense emotions or leads to that kind of irrational belief, which we can obviously talk about. Yeah, it's usually the deeper goal that that's kind of being thwarted. Okay, so we didn't get the promotion, and therefore I've not I've not attained quite a deep important value of mine to maybe provide better for my family, you know, which is just an example. And that's partly where we have those sometimes deep guttural reactions to barriers and failure. It's easy to say, oh, it's because you didn't obtain that specific goal, but in my experience, it it's that that specific, sometimes superficial goal is just kind of like an echo of a deeper value and a deeper goal. And that's the conversations that we want to be having with clients because then we can figure out the things that are really you know distressing them out there in the real world. It's usually not those superficial things. So it's kind of a gateway when you work with somebody to figure out okay, you want to obtain this goal. Why? Why is that goal important to you? What is the deeper level stuff that is driving you here?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

In your experience, how I mean, kind of finger in the air ballpark, what percentage of people or teams or stakeholders that you've worked with have a immediate understanding of the deeper level versus those that need help to get to that understanding of the deeper level?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

F from my experience, this is obviously biased by the people that I tend to work with. Sure. Um I would say that the majority, once you have a bit of a conversation about it, are able to conceptualize a deeper goal, a deeper drive. They are able to conceptualize what their values are as a person. I think as sports psychologists, we've all done sometimes group level value-based activities. Yeah, you know, and I know those things can be done well and those things can be done badly. I think when they're done well, you're allowing the group to bring in their personal values into that group setting, and we're trying to figure out how we can work together to fulfill some of those some of those values, you know. What values are shared and what values are common, what values are important to one person and maybe not to others, and and we figure out how that dynamic works. So I think majority are able to conceptualize that. One of the things that I've noticed with working with people, often at the back ends of their careers, is sometimes a regret that they weren't focused on those deeper goals in in their careers, and they were too oriented towards the superficial, external-based, or or even it doesn't have to be external-based. It it can also be hedonistic. It can also be, I just focus on pleasure, I just focused on making me happy over the course of my career. And there's some regret there because they've kind of lost their way, partly because they've attached themselves to career-based goals. So the career has shaped who they are and it's shaped their identity. And sometimes they've lost a sense of who they really are and they've lost a sense of their own values, yeah, and maybe the purpose of why they're involved in this, why they're why they're engaged in this activity to uh begin with. And then with those individuals, you can start to explore what those values or what the pursuit of those values might look like. Then they can self-define those values. When I was writing this book and trying to understand the stoicism more, I've really started to talk to people more about the stoic virtues and how that might be that might be a nice way to orient yourself if you feel like you have deviated from some sort of path. And I think we know it when we have as well. I think we know it. I think there's a there's a it sounds very unscientific to say there's a feeling, you know, but a spiritual proprioception. You know what I mean? But but we but we know at a deep level that we're that we're going off track, and sometimes we don't know why that's happening or how that's happening or what the track even is anymore. But I think people know it, and often those people are the ones that end up in their later careers knocking on your door and saying, I need some help here. But um, having the stoic virtues as a framework, as a value system that we can aim towards, I I I can't see, I can't see a downside in pursuing the stoic virtues.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Do you think that for some people it's almost a rite of passage to pursue more trivial aims, to understand that that isn't the thing that sustains or gives them vitality and unlocks a kind of a new thirst or discovery for more meaningful aims? Have you have you kind of seen that pattern? I feel like I've seen that pattern a lot, and maybe that's just because I live in London and of the satellite of advertising on the corporate world and I've seen so many goal-driven journeys and and stories. It feels like if maybe it's just a completely London thing or a city.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

I I think you would see you would I think you would see it in that world. You would obviously you would see it in that world, and it would be it'd be fairly obvious um at times, but I think it's everywhere. I think I think we're born into it. I think we're born into a society that values productivity and it's about you obtaining external things. I mean, the cynic the cynic in me can kind of recognise that there's a there's obviously a societal value for you grafting and grafting and grafting and being productive for society. Yeah. Now, if I can convince you as a system that that helps you, then I'm happy as you know, I'm trying to I'm trying to talk about the system as if I'm trying to anthropomorphise a system, but you know, then the system's gonna benefit from you thinking you benefit from from spending all of your hours working because you're more productive. And so I benefit as a as a as a system of productivity. But I think when you think about why are people doing this and why do we do that, and why do we kind of burn ourselves out and and spend everything on work, I try to think about life course a little bit and how you know it's not it's not for that long that we've been living to you know 60, 70, 80. And it's almost like within us to just graft and graft and graft and produce as much resource as possible to to in some way secure some sort of sustainable legacy. And then it it seems to be within our DNA. There's certain parts of our life that we just accept that we chase those external resources. Hopefully, we retain that resource so that when we're gone, it creates some sort of resource legacy, which is what would which is what would have been happening when we were in in much more simple civilizations.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

That would have been an important part of our role. It's different now. We have to think about how what working life looks like into our 60s and 70s. So if we burn it out in our 30s and 40s, then it's not gonna it's not gonna work. Yeah, we're gonna start to struggle to sustain a long-term um career. So I think it's actually hard for human beings to do that, to to plan long term and to think about long-term productivity, because I don't think that comes natural to us within the context of human civilization and the history of that per se. That makes sense. So I think it it's kind of natural for us to do that, to focus on those superficial external rewards. I think it's within us and within our culture and society to do that. And I think we're at pains to break away from that and think more long term and think more about what does lifelong fulfillment look like. That's a luxury that not many human beings have had.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

So that's difficult for us to do because it doesn't come natural and it's probably out of sync with human existence.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Echoes of a Maslow hierarchy of needs here in terms of elevating from safety.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

And and survival up the pyramid. Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

I think we don't think about that stuff enough, really, and why it is so difficult for humans to self-regulate in the long term, and why we are so oriented towards instant gratification and short-term goals, superficial external material goals. You know, it's it's you need to think more about that because it's not it's not fulfilling. I've worked with lots of people at the back end of their careers, not just in sport, that have regretted that pursuit, even though they've generated a great deal of resource, you know, great some some of them a great deal of wealth. It doesn't really help them from a from a fulfillment uh perspective. Sometimes they end up realizing that actually the families that they assumed they were supporting and helping, all they really wanted was their time and attention. They don't really care about the money and the houses, you know, they just wanted their time and attention, and they realised that quite late.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

And it was it was only last week, I think, wasn't it, or the week before Ben Cohen, who was one of the players that helped England win the Rugby World Cup in 2003, has has said he doesn't really like talking about it anymore. Yeah, yes. Um there's quite a few players from that squad, and obviously Johnny Wilkinson, quite famous for for talking about whether that that journey personally was worth it for him. For him.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Yeah, that's it. Because of course the system that you work in is going to promote to you that this is all about hard work and chasing those goals because it it you know it's a structured system so that you move past the next post and then you get this, then you move past the next post, and then you get this. Well, it's it's obviously helping the system for you to do that. What you have to try to do is is separate yourself from that. And some of the things that I would talk about would be the dangers of fusing who you are with what you do. And one of the reasons that happens is because you sacrifice your time and attention and effort into um a vocation, and then who you are and what you do starts to blend. And that gets a bit precarious and dangerous because it means that you're taking your eye off things that you could or perhaps should be focusing on that actually really matter, that do lead to fulfillment, but also it means that you're gonna take barriers and failures and obstacles in your career, you're gonna take them to heart much more. It's gonna feel like you know, a bit of an identity crisis when things don't work out for you because you fused your identity with your pursuit. The reason one of the reasons people do that, and one of the reasons why it feels helpful, because um you you have kind of deep reservoirs of motivation if you are able to fuse who you are with your pursuit, because it's like, well, why am I spending so much time on this? It's because it's who I am. There's no question, there's no kind of motivation regulation needed. I don't need to think why am I doing this and how can I motivate myself more? It comes more naturally because it's because of that fusion, and then it snowballs a little bit and sustains itself in that way. But if you can recognize that what who you are and what you do is separate, then you're in a less precarious position. But motivation might be more difficult at times.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Interesting. Yeah, the kind of the the trade-offs. These are the kind of the nuances that fascinate me about um REBT and the the chapter on goals is so good. And and anyone listening who's interested in this world, I I would highly, highly recommend checking out the book. Because, first of all, this this kind of the setting up of goals and purposes as something that we are almost evolutionarily designed to strive to attain. And I think you you kind of note Ellison Dryden in in the book there. And last time you talked about how you know, as a early civilizations, we were we were mobile, we were nomadic, we were, you know, we go from place to place, and and that that involved setting goals, etc. So it it's kind of it's inherent in us to do it. Great, okay, tick box. From a psychoeducation perspective, that is quite validating to know that as a human being there are drives inside of me that are pre-programmed to to pursue goals. Okay. And now I know, having read the book, that pursuing meaningful and noble aims are something that I want to shoot for, and shallow and trivial aims are fine. But if they're if they're linked to these more meaningful goals, then that is something that is going to be supportive in in the long run. And if I'm experiencing negative emotions, that's obviously again something that we're not designed to somatically want to welcome into our lives. But if we see those negative affects emotions as a a clue to the the value and the meaningfulness and worthwhileness of the goals we're pursuing, then that's a fairly good, fairly good reframe.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

I mean, also as also as a signal, those negative emotions also as a signal of distance from the goal. And that's important because we talk about these superficial goals and these deeper goals. And in in the book, I think I call them FGs and PGs, fundamental goals. Um fundamental goals is the thing that we're really interested in here. It's like that fulfillment piece. But I think the distance from the goal is important. You try to strive for something, you don't get there, you have that negative emotion that that is a sign to you, almost a non-cognitive sign that things haven't worked out. Okay. That's hard to experience and it's and it's unpleasant, and it's obviously unpleasant for a reason because it's telling you do better, change something, you know. But the other thing is this pattern of emotional response to attaining the goal that you think you wanted, which is interesting. So I went for this goal, I shot for this goal, and I got it, but I don't feel that good about it, to be honest. I don't have that wave of positive emotion that I thought I would get. In fact, I have some negative emotion mixed in with the yeah, I so don't have that wave of positive emotion that I was I was expecting from attaining that goal. I actually have some negative emotion mixed in there. That's a signal to me that maybe I'm I'm not chasing the right things, I'm not fulfilling those deeper goals.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

This is the the classic post-Olympic blues article that seems to get written after every Olympic cycle.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Yeah, 100%. And then there's there's good people in in our area that that have studied this and write about this, and and it's something that is so common that I would see as a sports psychologist working with people who have attained something and they don't get that euphoria they were hoping for. Now part of the reason for that, and part of the reason goals are important, is because you want to feel the positive emotion on the way to a goal. Let think about this in evolutionary terms. Does it make any sense to reward me with positive emotion when I achieve a goal? Because the job is done. I now need to move on to the next thing. So I'm rewarded when I feel like when I'm making meaningful progress towards that goal. So we've all been there where we focus on something, we're chasing something, and that's what feels good. The pursuit and feeling like you're making progress. Then when you actually achieve that goal and you don't get the euphoria, well, that makes sense, doesn't it? Because it's like, well, we're on to the next one. Human means we can't just rest and say that's done. We have to keep developing and keep moving and keep refining. So those negative emotions, positive emotions are goal-related. And if you don't have a goal, then I would argue it's very difficult to conceptualize positive and negative emotion. So they're important for our emotions, but the the emotions aren't just a you know a consequence. The emotions are tied into the goal such that the emotion you experience can feed back into the next goal. Okay, so I've achieved this thing, but I don't feel that good about it. So what's my next thing? Now, what I'm arguing here is that that your next thing should be um in pursuit of something deeper, and you should reset and come back to what am I really aiming for? Where are my values? What would it mean for me to be more fulfilled in life? Can I pursue those things um and and not kind of anticipate or expect that you achieve something tomorrow and you get this wave of euphoria and it's job done? No, no, it's a it's a it's a journey through life in uh you know towards fulfillment, but you'll never get there. It's an ideal that is a meaningful thing to chase because of the things that you will do and achieve and experience on the way to it. It's not something to be attained. The point is to pursue it. And I suppose one of the things I'm arguing for is in pursuit of that, if you are doing that through the lens of the stoic virtues, then I think you you end up better off than if you didn't have those uh virtues uh in your mind. mind as a goal, as an idea.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I found it's it's useful previously to ask athletes almost to project them as this is probably a Socratic approach, but to project themselves forward and assume that they've achieved the gold medal or they've won the Six Nations or they've achieved that thing and ask them a series of questions around that that hypothetical almost trying to project themselves forward. What's next? Or what was that for? Or what what are you going to use that achievement as a platform to to do? I found that that's quite useful in the past and and yeah often actually it's kind of met with a a lot of confusion because I don't I I don't I don't I don't again I don't think and and not in a bad way not that's not a judgmental thing. I think maybe maybe we're not programmed to to to think like that.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Well no I mean we we're being expected we have this privilege in the modern world that we can think about what you know what we want and what we want to do especially in you know the the developed um society the developed world we can think and we can articulate what do we want to do how do we want to shape our lives and what direction do we want to travel. Now just because we can do that it doesn't mean to say it's an easy thing to do. It doesn't mean to say we can do it perfectly. You kind of have to at some point make a decision about what what are your values and what will you pursue.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

And how much of that is in sync with these external drivers and these external goals and these more superficial um goals and how much of that is out of sync of that to the extent that you would forego certain external goals and certain material things and certain pleasures in order to pursue this deeper value based idea of goals. So it's a balance and it's it's um you're you're making sacrifices you're trying not to give way to kind of short range hedonism you're trying to think about long-term hedonism you know the Stoics probably conceptualize this as eudaimonia this long-term fulfillment and that's really difficult for people to do we know this from the scientific literature that and this is one of the reasons that um platforms um devices why instant gratification is such an important part of the addictive nature of those things it's because that we are what we are kind of wired in that way to appreciate those things.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Do you think there's a a clue to the value of something like eudaimonia that there's not completely analogous but there are fairly analogous words in a lot of different cultures that get at the same thing where it could be ikagai in in Japanese or just you know the the kind of the English language word fulfillment yeah I think there's something fairly analogous in in Maui culture I'm trying to scrape my brain my family from New Zealand so I'm I'm I'm pretty sure I've come across something in Maui culture as well that kind of gets at that yeah is that a clue that in parallel in lots of different cultures there's been a kind of a a discovery or a a development of that similar concept but in different parts of the world yeah 100% there's you know there's this you know not only is it a guiding framework but there's usually alongside that or as part of that there's a warning if you you know I mean like if you're not living in that way you're not pursuing particular values then there's a there's a big downside to that.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

I mean religions have this as well it's like here's the framework live by it and if you don't there's some negative consequences now whether you take those religious ideas as literal or not it's still kind of metaphorically true that if you're not if you're not pursuing something that is fulfilling then you will suffer in the long term whether you conceptualize that as heaven and hell it makes no difference it's still the same that there is a there is a there is a way to orient yourself in the world that helps you and helps others and there's ways to orient yourself the world that don't do those things and it's obviously self-evidently true that you want to be on the right side of that. Some people can convince themselves and get you know hypnotized by the system that actually it's about as to get everything that you could possibly get and pursue these material goals and life will work out just fine. But from experience working with these people from the literature how many biographies do we have to read until we realize that's not the way and but you use Johnny Wilkinson as the an example another good example because you know it's a good interview is Mike Tyson when I think he was on 60 minutes or something and and the interviewer was saying look at all these trophies and medals and awards and he was saying that's nothing that's nothing he says I just care about what my kids do now and what they achieve. So it's you know that there's certainly within specific cultures the same echoes of this and I think that we can conceptualize it in a way that's meaningful for the people that we work with yeah to make sure they you know use their language but it's the same stuff I think it's it's driving at the same point yeah you know do you the the more you kind of acquire knowledge experience expertise in this this area.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Does the kind of the concept of balance do you keep coming back to that? Because up just reading the chapter yes let's pursue meaningful things passionately but let's not create such an all or nothing demand on those things that when the inevitable unpredictability and uncontrollability of the human condition and the world creates barriers towards those things. Yeah yeah we're not experiencing it in a harmful negative way the negative way is uh I think you put a kind of it's an H and E, isn't it? It's a healthy negative emotion it's yeah it's you were experiencing it and that's a clue to the meaningfulness of the goal but you haven't put so so much demands on it that it's kind of getting in getting in your own way so to speak. I don't know whether I've completely butchered that.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

No I know what you mean I I think this is why it's important to think of RBT in a proactive way is because this gives you the opportunity to then you you know you gave the example a couple of minutes ago of asking questions to athletes about okay let's let's assume that you've achieved the thing you want to achieve you know well that that open opens the door to a proactive use of RBT rather than kind of a reactive RBT is a psychotherapy and and often it's seen as well somebody's suffering or struggling maybe RBT is a potential solution to that suffering and struggle. Okay so we can be reactive to that but obviously as a proactive element as soon as you reorient the framework and start with G and it's about saying okay well we have this goal that you want to pursue you think is important speaks to your values and you believe it will help you on that path to fulfillment but you people aren't just going to give you what you what you want the world's not going to lay down and let you be fulfilled and let you achieve those things um so you'll face adversity you'll face barriers okay so that we can predict a hundred percent you know that's the human condition why is it the human condition because you're naturally goal driven you're in an imperfect fallible human body and you're in a world that's uncontrollable and unpredictable so you will fail so that's your a that's your big broad meta okay well what what what beliefs what philosophies and ideas are you going to take with you on that journey to fulfillment is it going to be when bad things happen it's the end of the world and I can't tolerate it and how dare this thing stop me from from from attaining my fulfillment I have to achieve these things and if I don't I'm a complete idiot is it is it that you're gonna take with you the the the the rational side of things along with loads of other ideas philosophies and beliefs you know I'm just being specific to RBT here or is it going to be okay well I will pursue things meaningfully and sometimes it won't work out that's not ideal it doesn't make me an illuser or an idiot it's not the end of the world I will certainly be able to tolerate it. I don't have to have these things that I desire I don't have to achieve these things that I want to achieve I would very much like to and I will work as hard as I possibly can to get them but there is no rule that I have to have them just because I want them. Now if if you're pursuing that fulfillment through that rational lens or through those rational beliefs then it means you don't get to avoid negative emotion but you might just avoid unhealthy negative emotion might avoid this deep suffering that people get when they don't get what they want and this this you know pervasive anxiety around meaningful things as they approach them um you might get to avoid those things so it's not a case of of wanting to go through life all happy and cheerful because that's not the reality it's self-evidently the case but it's but can I stay on the right side of mental health can I stay on the right side of of of you know these these negative emotions and then you're hoping that the outcome of all that is that that fulfilled life that life worth living which is automatically imbued with negative emotion as part of human experience but can can it be a negative emotion that is that is functional that is unpleasant that actually potentially even helps me in that pursuit as a signal that I need to change something as a signal that I need to um move in another direction or do something differently. And that's how that comes together for me proactively from an RBT you don't have to sit around and wait for somebody to suffer and struggle you can have a proactive conversation from G to E and help people to figure out how do I orient myself in the right direction here and how do I adopt beliefs that might actually be sustaining on that journey.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

I love how that's been unpacked so succinctly from the proactive spirit that that can be had with RBT to clarifying goals and working on goals so they can be more meaningful to then discussing the the likely realities the inevitable realities of pursuing those goals and then the the types of thinking and the types of beliefs that could help us along that journey so number one we kind of avoid the unhealthy negative emotions or the kind of ill mental health but also trying as much as possible to give us the chance of having a journey that we look back and look at that with a sense of yes that journey was was worth it not I've achieved my goal but it was it was through a journey that I that I wouldn't repeat.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Well yeah and and and what did you bring and what did you take with you and what did you bring with you again drawing on stoicism the idea of social social social utility is important. It's like um you know who you who were you able to help along what along your journey oh nice okay or was it kind of this this kind of selfish pursuit of your own of your own passions you know I mean passions in a in a in a traditional sense not in a stoic sense because they have a specific the definition of passions. I don't mean that I just mean you you went to get what you wanted or thought you wanted and it was at the expense and cost of everything else. I genuinely don't think those those people end up looking back thinking well well that was good because they've got nobody alongside them. You end up with rich and alone and I think as we've spoken about you know earlier I can make sense of why that happens but I do think as RBT practitioners we can we can help in that if we take a more proactive stance and we look at we look at RBT from that view instead of the view right at the end of the framework which is I'm anxious I'm angry can you help me it's like well we can we can help you at the start of that or okay I'm trying to figure out how to pursue this thing and figuring out how to operate in the world or we can take an RBT view of that partly because it does take it RBT does take with it so much stoicism that we can have that philosophical viewpoint and you know it's it's that's one one of its strengths for sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yeah and I wasn't aware of the this social utility element of of stoicism who were you able to help along the way that's just a lovely lovely question to to be able to ask either of yourself or of others that you're working with. Yeah yeah just pivoting from kind of looking at the on on the kind of the individual basis of how to use some of this stuff to a kind of a wider lens around the psychologically informed environment is there anything from ROBT that we can take to inform a view on what that might be do you have your own perspectives feel feel free feel free to take take that in whatever direction you want yeah it's really important actually because I think that there is a if you look at the work on RBT and look at where it came from this is obviously for the most part an individually based one-to-one type therapy you can obviously use it in group work and there's good evidence for using in group work both in and outside of sport you know you could um you know put nice workshops together and um have group RBT and that works really well but for the most part you know it's a one-to-one based psychotherapy and I think because it is seen in that way we've become very focused on individual beliefs and the individual's experience of the world and how they might shape their own emotions and cognitions and behaviors.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

And that's fine and and I'm I'm I'm definitely a cognitive mediation expert I really I really see the human experience as something that's cognitively mediated. I do think that we can shape our emotions and behaviors I think that cognition is important and the articulation of that cognition can help us or hinder us you know hence the beliefs at the center of the framework. But it's also true that beliefs don't form in a vacuum and that emotions behaviors obviously obviously have a social quality and a social significance and a social consequence you know specifically when we look at emotions which are hugely socially informed and and socially important as kind of you know expressive and externalized signals to people around us of of what we're experiencing and therefore what they should orient themselves towards in the environment then they're obviously important. So we can take a social view of this and start to understand what climate are let's say athletes what climate are athletes operating in and how does that climate generate sustain and inform their beliefs specifically obviously I'm interested in rational and irrational beliefs and I think that's important because it's important for two reasons. The first reason is what are our levers that we can pull to aid people adopting rational beliefs and and sustaining those rational beliefs what levers can we pull? So I'm working with a team of of 40 individuals am I going to work with each one on a one-to-one basis okay I don't know how maybe we can figure out a structure to do that most of us sports sites in the world aren't going to be able to do full on one-to-one work with each of those 40 people you know okay how else could it look well it might look in a group session we can do some education work or in there and group work around there and that's fine. But these are this is limited impact in comparison to helping to shape the climate around those athletes to be more rationally informed that means working with parents coaches sport science sports sciences anybody involved in the club that has some kind of interaction with those athletes has the capacity to either promote or or not as the case might be any kind of belief so what is it about the climate that is that is promoting of intolerance around mistakes what in our environment is promotive of um end of the world mentalities when it comes to mistakes and failures and winning and losing what is it about our environment that encourages athletes to believe that my value is contingent upon my performance my human value is contingent upon my performance what is it about my environment that that supports that idea well it could be that my coach only talks to me when I do well otherwise they ignore me. Okay well if attention is the ultimate human currency which I think it is I can I can use my attention to punish or reward you and I'll reward you or give you attention when you do the things that I think make you valuable and when you don't do those things I'll ignore you. That communicates to me that my value is is contingent upon my performance and once I start to internalize that then it starts to become true that when I fail I'm a failure when I when I fail I'm worthless when I make mistakes I'm worthless this is interpersonal it's extra personal it's about the environment that we're in it's about the people within that environment obviously because the environment isn't anything really other than a cluster and collection of people and things. How do we pull those levers on those people and things to inform rationality within those climates within those environments so some of the work that Ryan Bailey is doing PhD student of mine is around the irrational climate which is obviously motivated by motivational climate and some of the work that um research has been doing on perfectionistic climate this is starting to look at how do we inform those you say psychologically informed environments how do we inform it in a rational way and I think that starts to move beyond the individual one-to-one work and it starts to go beyond the literal translation of RBT information and starts to look at a more behavioral idea of of climate and systems.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

What do you think the parallels or the the things that have cropped up in the literature around perfectionistic climate translate to the idea of an irrational climate are they almost the same thing or is it just an overlap?

SPEAKER_01 41:31

There's certainly overlap there's certainly overlap because the chances are that a perfectionist a perfectionistic climate will share some characteristics with an with an irrational climate but it's important to understand the differences. So Ellis speaks about perfectionism over the years and I think there's a misconception that perfectionism is irrational. Yep maybe it's irrational in a common definition of irrationality but it's not irrational in RBT definition of irrationality the irrationality comes from demanding perfection and using your lack of perfection to condemn yourself completely and to assume that imperfection is intolerable and to assume that imperfection is you know the end of the world and the end of you. So pursuing perfection is obviously something that we can support if it's done in a healthy way it's done in the right way. But when I demand perfection for RBT that's when it becomes irrational and that's when it becomes unhealthy because it it's it applying a demand to anything in the RB in the RBT sense makes it irrational. And there's nothing special in that sense about perfectionism from that perspective. Now if you set your goals in a perfectionistic manner and you demand that perfection then it enhances the extent to which you'll face adversity which means you'll suffer more why because you won't achieve perfection you're guaranteed to face adversity anyway and you're doubling down on that by setting your goals in a perfectionistic manner and then demanding that you attain those perfectionistic goals you won't you won't reach them. So you'll face adversity you'll get you're guaranteed to so that brings about more suffering more potential negative um unhealthy negative emotion that's where perfectionism and and kind of irrationality intersect and it's not in a way that people often presume they will often talk about perfectionism as if it's irrational but in behavioral terms it's not irrational how can it be irrational to set an ideal to set a perfect ideal and to chase that ideal to chase it yeah chase it you know it's irrational to demand it and it's irrational to presume that when you don't reach it that that in some way makes you less valuable or valueless or to assume that that's the end of the world or that that it's intolerable In some fashion. Now, you know, the perfectionism guys might disagree with me on that, but I'm I'm coming from an RABT perspective here. Yeah. Part of my job and role is to communicate these ideas to people to understand and criticize and we can have that conversation. But that's the RABT position. If you really boil it down, it's not that perfectionism is an irrational belief. You know, that your irrationality is very specifically defined in RBT. And I think it's defined helpfully to minimize abstraction. You know, minimize abstraction. Be very specific with your definitions, with your terminology, so we can really understand what this theory is. So we can test and refute the theory if we have to. And so that we can easily apply the theory, which we can in RBT. It is easily applied. This is why so many people can do it, and why we can we can train it. But yeah, yeah, so maybe some interesting edification there.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Yeah, 100%. Let me attempt to try and bring some of some of this together. So a psychologically informed environment through an REBT lens acknowledges that beliefs don't form in a vacuum. There is social significance to the emotions that are part and parcel of everyday life in a in a team or an environment, and taking a social view on this allows us to think about what levers we might pull to help those within that environment take more of a rational thinking approach, helping therefore to shape the climate in which athletes, stakeholders, support staff are all working. That's what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Yeah, I mean yeah, I think it's good that that's an accurate depiction, but also it's reciprocal. You know, your personal beliefs and you know the climate is reciprocal. What I mean there is if I have if I have deeply held irrational beliefs that I take with me into every situation, then I'm intentionally biased towards the irrational signals in that environment. I'm more likely to see and read irrationality because I'm just sensitive towards it. It fits, it's like a confirmation bias, it fits with the way that I see the world. So there is a relationship there. So what I'm not saying is only work on climate, it's both, isn't it? If an individual is having some issues and is suffering, uh, then obviously we want to work with them on a one-to-one basis to help them to shape their beliefs and help them to orient themselves in the right direction in the world. No, that will then uh hopefully open them up to really more rational rational signals in their climate in their environment, and you get that snowballing effect potentially. So it's for sure reciprocal, you know. Uh and I think that that's that's kind of an important thing to stay at as as well. We're trying to figure out uh within the RBT community, I would say, how do we operationalise RBT within these different spaces and places? And having done research and applied work in RBT, you know, you're trying to figure out ways to make this land and make this stick. Yeah. And part of that is to explore beyond the individual, you know, and I think climate is that new frontier in some ways of trying to figure out a behavioural level of RBT. How do I act as if failure is not ideal, but it's not the end of the world? How do how do I act? But it can't, it's not just language, it's not just articulation of those ideas. It's in my it's in my behaviour, my non-verbal behaviour as well. You know, we've all seen coaches just going mad on the sidelines when the referee makes a bad decision. That that's that coach communicating that this is unacceptable and that it's intolerable and it's almost the end of the world, it's a catastrophe. It's a behavioral, it's like behavioural bleed of what they possibly believe. You know, we can't always state that 100% accurately. But if if if an athlete goes away having witnessed the coach do that, that's oh okay, well, yeah. If something goes against us, then it's completely intolerable. Then they take that with them. And then that affects their own behavior and their own emotional reactions to um to things not going their way, which lots of things won't go their way, you know. So to me, that that's kind of the new frontier and something that I think will be will be interesting to um kind of pursue going forward.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Yeah, the new front the new frontier of REBT within sports psychology and wider environment and climate. And yeah, we'll we'll keep a keen eye on on Ryan's PhD. Um, sounds absolutely fascinating. Look, Martin, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your your experience and your your insights. Last time you offered up The Matrix as your one book, podcast, movie, or TV show that has impacted you the most personally or professionally. So you're not allowed to bring up the matrix again. So maybe there's there's something else you might be able to contribute to the uh the growing library of of stimulus for the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Well, I mean, one book that I came across when I was researching and and uh trying to write this this rational practitioner book was Down and Out in Paris and London by George Orwell. Oh right. Now this isn't this isn't uh uh doesn't align with R OBT really, really clearly. But one of the reasons I find that book fascinating is that Orwell basically chooses to uh you know live on the streets in in mainly Paris, then travels to London. And he he basically just enforces poverty on himself and has all these experiences and and and you know just these horrific moments and experiences that you know just harrowing to read. But there's there's a part in the book where he kind of reflects and says, once you've lived that way, once you've experienced this, you realize that you can you can tolerate anything. And that really speaks to this frustration tolerance, if I can say the words, uh within RBT and this idea that you can tolerate more than you think you can. And to me, you that whole reading that whole piece and that whole book is a testament to how much a human being can actually live through and go through. And obviously, there's there's lots of examples of this out in the literature and out in the media, but Orwell just writes in such an engaging way that it it really stands out as a nice example of that.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Fantastic, great, let's add that to the list. I'm always looking for new books to to eat through on the on the commute and it's a short book as well.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

It's a short book as well, which is good for me. Oh, even better.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Good stuff, yeah. Even better if you've got two kids and a dog uh and a couple of different jobs. Um even better. Well look, thank you so much for contributing that and for your your time again on the podcast, the second chapter of talking about ROBT. There's there's always so much stuff you can you can go down, and I really thoroughly enjoy these these conversations. So thank you so much, Martin. No, thank you, Pete, for inviting me back.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

And always good to talk to you uh uh about about this stuff and appreciate the kind of um the background reading you do on these things in order to you know tease this stuff out of me. Um so yeah, always enjoy these experiences.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Keep sending me the books. Yes, we'll do particularly anything that's got a dragon on the front, I will read.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

So well, I've noticed with the rational practitioner that people find it most useful when they buy about 100. That seems to be the sweet spot.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Yeah, yeah, it used to be 200, it's coming down now, isn't it? So yeah, good stuff. Um, well look, thanks again, and uh yeah, have a great rest of the year and uh yeah, hopefully catch you in 2025 at some point.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Yeah, that'd be great. Cheers, Pete.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Good man, cheers, bye.

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Well, there we have it. Shamefully, it's been a fair few months since we recorded this episode. So hands up, and genuinely, I wanted to do it justice in a thorough reflection. And if you're anything like me, your brain was lighting up like a Christmas tree with all the insights, brilliant connections, and takeaways, either as a practitioner or purely just useful stuff for everyday life. I think the first bit for me was perfectionism. It's the first thing I'll touch on because it's something that came up in the aforementioned CPD session that I did with Martin and Andrew Wood earlier in the year. And the reason why I find this interesting, it's it's kind of common parlance, it's rhetoric, it's language that's used in everyday life. People say, Oh, I'm a perfectionist, or I always have to worry about that because I'm a perfectionist. And perfectionism is written about quite commonly within academic circles and broader media, and as the inverted comma wellness trend continues to sweep through our social media feeds, you'll see all manner of expert and non-expert voices comment on the utility or the damage or the helpfulness, harms, evils, etc., of perfectionism. And it's easy to assume that perfectionism is something to be wary of. So from autobiographical accounts, athlete biographies, um, or just purely from a logical standpoint, it's mostly impossible in most fields, areas, and elements of life to be perfect. So perfectionist tendencies must set us up for a life of disappointment, right? Well, according to REBT, not necessarily. Because with many parts of life examined through the lens of psychology, in the old psychologist adage, it depends. Because if perfectionism is the B in the REBT framework, the belief that I must be perfect or I don't have any value and I am worthless and people won't love me if I'm not perfect, then yes, that is an irrational and unhelpful belief that is likely to lead to unhelpful and unhealthy emotions and experiences in the long term. Um, and is something that Martin and other REBT practitioners would probably want to work on with clients who had those cognitions. But if perfectionism is the goal, it could, given the right other circumstances, beliefs, and behaviours, be helpful. So imagine this ideal scenario where an athlete or any performer really was aiming for perfection with their performance or their training or their habits, but also maintain the belief that not achieving this perfection was okay or tolerable and in fact a likely probability. That could be seen as a really helpful blend of drive and hard work to achieve something alongside a rational and grounded perspective. And it's interesting, anyone who's watching the quarterback documentary at the moment on Netflix, there is, I think it's about three or four episodes in, you'll hear each of the quarterbacks in the documentary is Jared Gough, Joe Burrow, and Kirk Cousins talk about this idea of perfect. And particularly Jared Goff goes into this reflection about how he's aiming for perfect, but no, but knowing at the same time that it's unachievable. So it's almost like this George Orwell double think that it's something to aim for, but it's also something that is incredibly unlikely to happen. So if you haven't watched the documentary, definitely check it out and check out that episode in particular. So going back to Martin's words on the subject, pursuing perfection is something we can support if done in a healthy way. But then if I demand perfection, that is when, from an REBT perspective, that becomes irrational and unhealthy. So the next thing we're going to talk about is values and goals. So the other major reflection was around values and goals. And this is just a personal take, but if you're a fellow trainee or early post-chartership practitioner like myself, I think it's easy to get to perspective quite quickly that superficial goals that are mainly extrinsic in nature can have potentially harmful effects over the long term versus holding deeper goals or goals that are underpinned by certain values like the cardinal or stoic virtues that Martin mentions in the conversation. And I've had conversations like these before with clients. One of the questions I've asked before that I picked up from a conference or CBT course somewhere was something along the lines of imagine you've achieved the gold medal, you've won the tournament, you got the MVP award, all of the goals you've set out to achieve have come true. What would be next? What would you use that achievement as a platform for? Now, the reason why I like that question, it's a Socratic type question that triggers some really interesting conversations around values, goals, and life philosophies. It kind of widens the lens a little bit and you start to think about the future. But what interested me was whether this is something everyone is able to adopt early on in their lives, or whether there's a certain element of a rite of passage or utility in pursuing superficial goals, achieving them, and then realizing something is missing before we can open ourselves up to the possibility that deeper values and goals could be worth exploring. Martin's perspective was that it's almost an inevitability in some respects because we're born into a society that values productivity, sales, profit, medal tables, GDP growth, A-level results, etc. And often these are externally rewarded things. And I liked how Martin couched this in almost an evolutionary perspective, or at least in the context of human history. Thinking long-term, thinking about what a fulfilling life might look like, that's a luxury that not many human beings have had, and it's difficult for us to do and doesn't come naturally, and it's probably out of sync with human drives and existence. In fact, we are very privileged in the developed world that many of us get to have this thought to think about to begin with. And just because we can think about it doesn't make it an easy thing to do. I think this kind of leads quite naturally and nicely onto the third big thought that I took away from the conversation, which was this thought about the interplay between identity and motivation. So a recurring theme of the podcast, running all the way back to episode three with Leon Lloyd, has been the pitfalls of fusing your identity with what you do for a living, or the sport you play, or the job you have. It's the whole better people make better all blacks adage that Leon brought up in our conversation. When you build multiple prongs and spokes to your identity, everyone wins because you are investing in more parts of your identity and deriving self-value from different places, but also your employer, your team, your company, your organization also wins because they are getting a more rounded, more skilled individual. But Martin raises a really interesting, ironic process that might play out in this dynamic, specifically around motivation. So he observes that fusing who you are with what you do does actually allow you to tap into deep reservoirs of motivation. Or I love this turn of phrase, deep reservoirs of motivation, by the way. So when challenges arise or you are prompted with the question, why am I spending so much time on this or suffering for this? You can say to yourself, Well, this is who I am. So recognizing that these things are separate might put you in a less precarious place psychologically for the long term. But motivation might be harder to come by. And I thought this was an interesting outtake, and probably it's no coincidence that self-interested clubs, teams, or organisations are probably quite happy for athletes to have an all or nothing or life or death perspective on their sport and have their identity fused with their sport and their team for the time period that they are with their club. If they're seeing these athletes tap into these deep reservoirs of motivation as a result, and you could probably see why the better people make better all blacks story that have come out of that organization, why that maybe isn't such a common thing seen in most sporting organizations. And finally, finally, I said there were three things to reflect on, but actually one more thing I'm going to note from the conversation here, which is around how RUBT, which perhaps has traditionally been seen as a theoretical approach or model used primarily in one-to-one settings, can start to inform apply practice from a system level. So, in relation to the Pi, the psychologically informed environment, Martin mentions that it's about the people within the environment, because the environment isn't anything really, anything other than a cluster and collection of people and things. So, how do we pull those levers with people and things to inform rationality within environments? So the rational climate, which he mentions, is another helpful piece of language and a handy bookmark for the slice of pie collective think tank. So thinking about how to promote rationality and rational thinking in your teams, organizations, and environments. So questions like what do we value is an obvious starting question that 99% of workshop facilitators will probe around. We've all been in those settings, we've all been in those workshops. But what about other questions that could reveal irrational or rational perspectives that we could work on? So, what is our default reaction when something goes wrong or something isn't achieved? What happens if the process is good but we don't make the target? Or vice versa, should we be celebrating successes that came from bad processes and perhaps we were just lucky? Now, so there's lots to think about there, I think. So there we go, a bumper episode to lead us into the autumn of 2025. Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Stay tuned for the next one with two kids in nursery and a full-time job and a dog and a back to rehab. Who knows when it will be, but hopefully one more by the end of the year at least. So that's it for now. And if you have been, thanks for listening.