Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hello and welcome back to the Slice of Pi podcast where the Pi is a psychologically informed environment, and the mission is to try and further our understanding of what that might look like in sport, in business, or in any environment where performance and well-being are hot topics. To kick off 2026, we have a fabulous guest, the brilliant Dr. Peter Schneider, experienced sports psychologist and most recently mental performance coach at R.B. Leipzig in Germany. Peter has over 15 years of experience in professional football as well as a few of the industry informed by study in the United States, Finland, and Germany. He's now working independently in private practice, and as you'll see in our conversation, graciously sharing real insights into the world of elite development and the human stories that make never make the back page. Once you've listened to this conversation, I'd urge you to head over to the Sportsite Show podcast to check out Peter's interview with Dan Abrahams, which is jam-packed with even more stories, insights, wisdom, and colourful anecdotes from inside the pressure cooker of top-level European football. Now, I met Peter almost 10 years ago at a conference in Poland originally, and then again in Croatia, and then again in Italy a couple of years later. He's a wonderful human being and always willing to share his experiences. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. So let's not beat around the bush any longer. Let's get into it. Let's get into the episode with

Interview

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Dr. Peter Schneider. Pete, how are you? Thank you very much for joining.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Pete, I'm pretty good. Thank you. It's uh it's a beautiful sunny day in Leipzig. It doesn't happen every day. So enjoying the sunshine and happy to take some time to talk to you today.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Oh, it's lovely to reconnect. Um, for those listening, I met Pete uh many moons ago, probably going on 10 years, um, at a conference in Warsaw, and it was the first conference that I went to as part of the the NESP European Network of Young Specialists in sports psychology. And if anyone is is listening to this podcast who hasn't heard of this organisation, go and check them out because they're a fantastic group of engaged, smart, networked sports psychologists around Europe. And I think this conversation is proof in the pudding that the connections that you make through this organization and those meetups do last quite a long time. And so it's lovely to reconnect. First of all, please, because I like to do this at the start to make sure people have got the opportunity to signpost where they are on the internet. Where can people find you? What are you doing at the moment, and what should people be checking out in the world of Peter Schneider?

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Uh well, the name, the name is the uh the most important bit. Uh, went ahead and uh I started a new business uh as a consultant basically. And congrats. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, I've been really excited. I've been working basically for for football clubs, soccer clubs to my to my uh American, my own American heritage. Um I've I've since a bit transitioned when I speak to those uh in the European realm. I usually say football.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

But uh yeah, we can play the Wolf of Wall Street one of us gift.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's been it's been um it's been a long, it's been a long journey, but football has definitely made it into the vocabulary. Good man. Uh at this point. My my daughter is also European, although she's German, she'll say Fußball. But uh I'll have to well I'll have that conversation at another another point. But yeah, so I started my own uh practice uh consultancy, Peter Schneider, uh hyphenmpr.com. But if you just simply put Peter Schneider mental performance regeneration, that's that's my website. Uh LinkedIn is gonna have all the info as well. Um, and uh yeah, that's that's definitely my main focus right now. Is is uh had a couple couple months of a of a break after the last season. It was quite a uh intense last season. It was a it was in general a very intense four years at RB Leipzig the last four years. And um yeah, now I'm working uh currently with uh with a few individual players and likely open to periodical work with uh with clubs. Uh sometimes they just want uh a consultation, sometimes something longer. Um but uh yeah, that'll that has all come with time. As I said right now, that's uh that's the best way to find me. That's kind of what I'm what I'm up to.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Great stuff. Well, I'll make sure that we also put those links in the show notes for anyone who's who's interested. And I'm I'm sure the experience that you've taken from the clubs that you've worked with over the last number of years into your individual practice, I'm sure that experience would be absolutely crucial and valuable for those that reach out to you. And uh yeah, all the all the best, striking out on your own is is never an easy thing. But uh yeah, I'm sure you'll I'm sure you'll make a grand success of it. Thank you. In preparation of for the podcast, we obviously went back and forth over email with some ideas, and your theme for this episode was unlocking the real story when moving to the big club. So an absolutely enticing title there. So talk to me a little bit more about this theme that you've come up with and your experience kind of witnessing this transition in the roles that you've had.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Right. So since I left um Abbey Leipzig, I really have found myself in conversation after conversation uh with uh you know whether it's friends, family, colleagues, uh asking simply about the experience and and the in the way in which I talk. Uh my my my wife even commented once about how how I speak now as opposed to four years ago is completely different. And the effects it's had on me, the experience it's had on me. Although I've I've been uh honestly uh active in in professional football for for 15 years over three different clubs, and uh the way in which I I I speak about let's just say very high profile individuals, uh people who are very often in the news, people who are very often whether being celebrated or criticized, uh it's something that I talk about them in a very humanistic uh point of view, a very, very relaxed uh point of view. And this is this is something I think that during doing some self-reflection, I thought about man, what was it really like getting started with let's say the big time club, getting up to a Champions League club. I had when I think about when I was younger, talking about Ennis uh in a European network of young specialist sports psychs, and I was a master's student, and I just thought it would be so freaking cool to work with a Champions League level uh football club. Like that would just be the that would just be so cool because uh I always enjoyed the sport and there just seemed so many uh bonuses, so many cool things. You get to travel, you get to go to the stadiums, you get to go to these games. The whole idea of there's something we say that the big lights can be can be blinding. Yeah, it's absolutely true when you when you first when you first kind of take that step. And um and it's definitely not all glorious. That's one thing I'll definitely want to talk about today is the two different things about getting started and and the rough patches kind of going when you're when you're stumbling through the beginnings. And then of course, uh as the seasons progress, have you has your highs and lows? How many things happen, how many sports psychology themes are taking place uh in really basic and really silly, let's say, locations, or or and a lot of times when you maybe it sounds silly, like don't want to do sports psychology. So after a really tough loss and at a way game, and you you and a few players are just kind of sludging back uh to the bus and then driving over to the to the plane. And a lot of people talk about the excitement of how you get to travel to uh uh whether it's a champ. I remember a gave example we went to Manchester, we got our heads kicked in seven-nothings and we're knocked out of the Champions League uh the round of uh 16, I think it was. And you don't really feel like doing a lot of work after that, right? But that's the job, that's why they pay you, that's why you're there. And so, you know, yeah, there's a lot more comfort in being in an office, and when somebody comes to you and says, Okay, we want to do we want to do self-reflection, we want to work on uh meditation, whatever. So that's kind of what I meant to to summarize is is that part of that part of the business, the the daily work is is uh there's just not it's not as much glory as one would like. There's a lot of fun things, yeah. And also the starting, the first steps, and and really, like I said, yeah, getting blinded by the lights and and trying to make uh steps forward without stepping on the wrong, let's say on the booby traps on the on the on the way.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

So what what do you how do you think your wife would summarize that that transition and how you talk about athletes, players, or or that environment? I think you kind of you mentioned more of a humanistic, relaxed point of of you. What what would have it been beforehand?

SPEAKER_03 9:43

I think I just also glorified them a little bit. Okay. I figured they must they must have something special, they must be um not necessarily that they they think they're a better person or a better human being. I just you have maybe certain expectations about uh about how the way in which they've presented themselves in the media or the public eye, and and um you of course have zero idea how they actually feel about the topic of sports psychology, mental training, um all these things. And I have to say, I I ironically, if I think about my time in Jena, which was a fourth league club, we got promoted to the third league. I felt there's much greater skepticism actually there in terms of sports psychology in general. Whereas um Augsburg was maybe my second club. Augsburg was a little bit of mixed bag. There's definitely a lot of interest, a lot of people wanting to to to to try out different things. If I look at Leipzig, it was more over a quality check. We know what sports psychology is, we know what mental training is, we've we've heard a lot, we have a lot of exposure to the newest, uh the newest machines, the newest ideas. Uh we have people constantly bombarding us with how you can, you know, make you sleep better, recover better. And it's really more the question of okay, so what do you got?

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

And uh that's a whole different ballgame. It's not, it's not that there's definitely an openness. The scary thing is, and this is a classic phenomenon, right? So the door is open, right? And then it's more over, you know, do you have the guts to go through it? Because you might go through and they might say, Yeah, I have no chance, yeah. Uh and what hurts more, right? Do I do I just stay in the kind of the comfort and uh and continue to do what I've done, or do I really go to to some of the uh biggest names in the sport and say, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna try to show them that I can, that I have something, I know something that they don't know that can make them better.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

This is the how do you make the boat go faster anecdote that Stephen Ingham has about meeting um Hinson and Redgrave because that because that that's the that's the motivation, right? Within a lot of these environments is okay, you're you're you're coming in, you've got all this experience and you're qualified, and you've you've beaten out the other candidates. How can we win? How can we how can we do better? How can we make this thing go faster? One thing that you've said within there that I thought was quite interesting was silly locations.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

What's a what what's a silly location for applying sports psychology?

SPEAKER_03 12:19

Uh I mean, again, it's things like um you're on the bus, um, you know, at the airport, you go through security, and then you have to sit on a bus. Uh you get on a bus and you drive like to your plane. Oh yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. So what happens a lot of times uh is you know you go through, usually it's like a VIP thing. Uh not always, by the way, but sometimes it's like a little VIP entrance, and you go through security, and then you go and you but just like any other plane, you go get check your ticket, you go down and sit at stand on the bus, and then you have to wait for every single person to get on that bus. And um, like I said, especially after a loss, certain players maybe just are just they're just tired, they're exhausted, they're they're a little slow. Uh, some don't even don't speak English uh German that well, so it takes a little minute to get them also kind of uh motivated. Um, some cultures also aren't that excited about punctuality, so there's a little bit of that going on. What that does then, what I mean by that is you get on the bus then, and you have like these 10-15 minutes where you're just standing, like you know, holding there, like you know, like every odd person does, you're standing there waiting for the bus to drive, and you have two, three players right in front of you. And very often, if uh they're not looking at their phones, which which is you know typical, but for anyone, they just start talking about their game. They'll start chatting about with this or that, or maybe criticism. Oh, why did he put him there, or why did we put this formation, or ah, if we just would have done this, or oh, you have to play, oh, he's gotta score that goal. And that's massively important information because it's very unguarded, very honest emotions that they know you're there, they see you as psychologists are there, yeah, and they're very willing to say it in front of you and share it with you. Um, and that's that's a great sign, that's a good thing. And to for me to put my headphones on uh and you know, listen to music or to kind of like turn away or uh would just be a complete waste of of very, very valuable information that could help those players, could help the team, um, and could really get a get a get a quick sense of a loss, a really quick turnaround perhaps. Um, and so these 10, 15 minutes, maybe it's even five minutes, uh, are extremely valuable and you have to have your antenna on right at that moment. And um and if you don't, you know, that's just like I said, all the information that kind of slips through your fingers because there are times players will be more guarded, more aware um of whom they're speaking to. And um let's be honest as well, when you're injured, there's there's kind of two different reactions. Often you you know you close up completely, which is very typical. Um or what can also happen is really uh you're looking for self-assurance, you're looking for something to make it feel better, right? And uh one of the human things ever, of course, is to talk about something, to try to analyze it and try to work through it. And um that's like that to me is one of the one of the I think very misunderstood parts of sports psychology at that level is someone from the outside might not see that as sports psychology. They might see ah he's just they're just hanging out, they're just having a chat, and there's nothing further from the truth. Yeah, uh, it's it's exactly those moments that you're having real true connections to from human being to human being. And again, those those people, those players or their staff, whoever it is, they're having very open and honest discussion with you about something. Um to discount that in any way is simply um, in my opinion, uh very, very silly and and very costly. Very costly to to to uh potential to potential gains for the club, for the players.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

I mean those kind of bus airport spaces are characteristic of liminal spaces, aren't they? Those spaces in between two places that you're coming from and and you're going to. And that liminal space, there's there's very little expectation on you to be really be doing anything or achieving anything. So therefore that that liminal space opens up and an opportunity to have conversations. And is is this the the kind of indicative of the real story that you're getting at? So maybe you know, 20-year-old Pete or you know, people who are listening to this who are in their early 20s wanting to break into sports psychology, thinking about giving a rousing Al Pacino-esque speech in front of a team where it's kind of it's all about them and it's delivering information, and you're you're part of the part of the club, you've got the badge on the stash. But actually the the real story is is having a conversation with uh a real human being who might be going through real suffering after being injured, and you're you're speaking to him in a bus in an airport somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, injured maybe again, psychologically, maybe injured in the sense of just feeling really hurt that he wasn't able to perform the way he did. One of the greatest, one of the most frustrating things for me is listening to my neighbors because they they know I was connected to the club and uh when we would have a bad game or we'd lose maybe against a let's say a lesser quality team, how quickly they were to pass judgment on players. This is something I've I've repeated a couple times in in in interviews. And I I am so quick to defend players because I just don't I don't accept that that somebody here is is going to say say things that that just that just simply aren't true. I can't allow someone to say, ah, he's just not trying, he doesn't care. He doesn't, you know, those those those blanket statements those those those frustrate me uh greatly, especially because I have a personal relationship to these these guys. But again, I say things like that. I say, you don't see these guys in the locker room right after a loss. You don't see them on the in the bus, in the plane. Um, you don't see them on the next day when you know we play Saturday, we get home at 10, 11 p.m. at night. I don't get home to my kid, uh give my kid a kiss uh on uh on the head. And I get home at one in the morning. I can't sleep because I'm completely wired up, you know, um sit with my dog, maybe drink a w drink a bourbon or a whiskey just to kind of calm down, you know, because we're just just so wired out at 12, 1 in the morning. And I know I worked with sleep with a lot of the players, and and they also they get home, they can't sleep till two, three, four in the morning sometimes. Um, and and it's not from not wanting to or not being professional, it's simply it's a question of cortisol, it's a question of of an inability for the body to calm down and grant we work on strategies, but is it there's human at the end of the day, and then they also get up on Sunday, me as well, at 8 a.m., 9 a.m. They drive to the academy, they train for another two, three hours, they get some video, depending on the situation. They might have to get a little talk to from the coach, from management, from whomever, whom uh who I uh uh from whomever. And but then they kind of get to try to walk the they try to probably avoid the city for the next 24 hours because they don't want to be seen by uh people in the street. So you know these are these are all things that I'm like to say they don't care or to say to say these blanket statements about you know whatever, um it frustrates me greatly because I see how much they care and I see how much they invest, and I have absolutely no problem with every fan having the right to buy a ticket and to critique and to uh to cheer. I have no problem with that. You know, if someone misses the goal, you can get angry. It's it's that's the whole point of the game. It lives from emotions. In the same breath, I say keep it about the game. When you start to say things like, oh, his his motivation isn't there, he doesn't he doesn't actually have any desire to play for this team. Yeah, that's where I get it.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Yeah, yeah, because you see it, right? You'll you'll you're seeing it at the the very real and very visceral 24-7 news channel level, not just the the highlight package that that everyone else gets. I mean, I was literally in a a WhatsApp looking at a WhatsApp group this morning, which is based around the NFL. A few people that I know who live over live over here who who follow the NFL. And there's a quarterback who plays for the 49ers called Brock Purdy, who's injured at the moment. He's got turf toe. And there was a there was a guy in the WhatsApp group saying, you know, this guy's on he's on a uh, what does he say, a nine-figure salary? You know, surely he can play through a a bit of a hurt toe. And I thought I I I looked at this message and a little bit, I suppose in the same breath as what you were just describing, just thought how common the the earning volumes that these athletes have are turned against them, um, particularly when it comes to things like playing through injury or you know a perceived lack of motivation. It it becomes a it becomes this kind of uh weapon that that can be turned back onto them um at any at any point. And um it there's such a kind of basic logic in that that I think a lot of fans that watch sport can kind of connect with and uh Yeah, it's a shame, isn't it? Because I suppose from your perspective, um, you're not seeing any of that at all. You're seeing a real human being, you know, it operating in quite uncommon circumstances that other people don't, you know, get to experience or maybe might not want to experience, like not being able to walk through your own town after a loss. You know, that's yeah, yeah. Um they're getting remunerated. They get to do something that a lot of people would like to do for a living, but they're also accessing a lot of experiences that people wouldn't want to have, like a reporter shoving a camera in their face outside their house, you know, when they they leave, or you know, the feeling that they can't actually, you know, walk around town unless they've got security detail. And that those are experiences that perhaps people wouldn't want.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

No, absolutely. You're absolutely right. And again, it's uh it we're talking about very, you know, very specific circumstances. I I think the great, great majority and players that I've been in contact with at that level absolutely are extremely grateful to be at that level and extremely happy about you know, not just as you said, the maybe the amount of money they're earning, but it's not like I I think I think people uh on the outside tend to think that they they think that the footballers don't realize how much money they make. And no, no, no, they they definitely know how much money they make. They they do understand what what it's for, and and at the same time, let's be honest, this the the football society has kind of set those rules. It's not as if player X has decided he's supposed to earn nine figures, as you said. That's that I mean his agent might have argued for that, but the system has has created that, that that's that's the amount of money that the zone is asking for, Sky is asking for, all the all the all the advertisements are are asking for. So you know this is this is something as uh as well that uh when people talk about the money in football, I completely understand it. I think even the the the prem the the Premier League is as I've I've heard many uh talks, you know, about the 50 plus one in Germany, which is uh it's you know that fans have to own the clubs, it's a very strict, strict rule, whereas in in the Prem it's you know quite bit quite different. And there are there are definitely English fans that say that they think that that has had a great effect on maybe the the passion of certain aspects of the football. I kind of go back and forth. Sometimes I'm not exactly sure how much I agree with that. But again, uh I'm kind of out of that circle. I'm not a fan anymore. When you're in the when you're in the you know, you're in the cogs, uh, you're you're you're part of the machine. And so it's it's not really fair for me to judge, it's not really fair for me uh to really say this is right or this is wrong. Yeah. I think that's kind of what I expect though from from the people on the outside is yeah, I can have an opinion, but at the same time, it's not really for you to judge how how certain things are and I don't know, maybe that even that is a controversial opinion in itself. My focus at the end of the day is always I say, you know, I don't look at the Bundesliga, I don't look at the Premier League, I don't look at I literally look at player X, player Y, player Z, team A, team B, how can I help them? What what problems do they have that I can help them succeed and go on to be to be more successful versions of themselves?

SPEAKER_00 25:26

So having seen the the underbelly of what life is like at a elite Champions League level football club, if you were to cast your mind back to the Peter who had just moved over from the States and was studying sports psychology, I think in Finland, wasn't it? To begin with. Yeah, yeah, that's where I started, yeah. And so, you know, I think you mentioned before that'd be so frickin' cool. I wrote down.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

I might have used a different word, but yeah, I guess that'd be so freaking cool.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Um how has the how has the mindset changed? So if the motivation previously might have been tinted by you know the kind of the the attraction of the the bright lights, what's the what's the motivation now? How has that transitioned? What's your motivation around your work? Uh how has that changed?

SPEAKER_03 26:17

So a a little a little context, uh one might help. I I began in in Yeno, as I said, which was a fourth league club, a regional league club at the time, fourth year, and got the chance after three, four years to work with uh the men's team directly. I worked with uh the under 19 coach who then got promoted. He and uh he and the his assistant coach, they both went up and he said, Hey, do you wanna you wanna join? Would you like to to try it for a couple years? And I ended up signing a contract for three years. I was over the moon and and you know, it was regional league football, you know, it wasn't anything, you know, at the for me, it was the world. For me, it was the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. I was so excited. I was I had just turned on 30, I was on 32 or so, and I had been working with academy players and always kind of you know knocking on the door, doing my PhD, and this kind of just came and I said, I'm I'm gonna do this. This is so cool. We got promoted, it was an amazing season. And and I remember sitting around after um uh one evening with uh the physio who has been with me, we'd worked together for four or five years at that time, and he made a joke about well, you know, Pete, it's gonna be really cool when we see you, you know, at the big leagues. And I said, Wow, whatever. I said, I don't know, I'm pretty happy here. He goes, This place is too small for you. It's too small for your brain, it's too small in the sense of like not that I'm better than this place, but moreover, we just we see your drive and and you're you know, you're from the states, you're in a small town in Germany in the center, like you're you know, you came overseas to to do something, to do one of something bigger, you want to do something bigger. And so I always kind of laughed at and I always took that comment with me, and and it was true. I I knew I always believed that my biggest dream was to work for a Bundesliga team, professional league team. And specifically, I said, you know, but the ultimate was to get to that to that Champions League, just to be on the bench or be standing there when the Champions League uh hymn was played. I was just I said that would be the coolest thing ever. You know, over a few steps that that when I when I got to Leipzig and and and was able to accomplish this, it then became, yeah, we you know, I was there for six months, I was there for a year, and then it was like, okay, well, now you're just doing this. What's the next step? Like, what do you okay? You're here now. You know, then it's about proving to yourself that you can stay, that you're good enough, that they didn't just give you a one-off and said, Okay, yeah, thanks for coming. And yeah, it was, you know, you were okay. But getting that contract extended was this was also. I remember I was just, you know, there's no Instagram post with me re-signing my cotton new contract. There's nothing, nothing, the club is gonna be posting that.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

There should have been. There should have been.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

But but I had um, but I did have um the secretary there. Uh I just uh she had handed to me. So I I I talked and you know, done my discussions with the director, and then he, you know, he wrote me a message the next day. I said, Ah, everything's good. You can come pick up your your contract in uh the secretary's office, Jill's office. I go and I get it. And um she's a funny story, but she's half American, so we always spoke English. We had just kind of uh um always a couple jokes back and forth, and I saw her and um I remember saying, because it was already signed by the director and stuff. I said, Hey, can you can you take a picture of me signing this? And she was like, Oh, definitely. She's like, And she took a picture. I sent it to my wife, I sent it to some friends, you know, like with my own little caption as a joke, like biggest, biggest uh Red Bull Leipzig eBay signing of the of the season, you know, Pete Schneider says on board, and so that was then like the next thing was like, okay, that was the confirmation that okay, not only did I I even there was a coaching change, even there was a director change, uh Max Eba had just come in, and it was like, okay, can you say prove yourself, but can you stay at this level? And then to have that and to continue uh was was a great confirmation because it again is one of these things where you start to see sustained change. The guys that you are working with, the guys that you get to spend time with are really going on to do what what just great things. I think about uh Danny Olmo goes to Barcelona, wins a title with him, Yoshik Vario, who was there my first couple of years, goes to Man City, wins Champions League. Uh Dominic Soboslay won two uh Def Bay uh German Clubs with him. You know, it's it just being around these guys, Chris Nakunko in the Chelsea, I think it's now in Milan. Uh uh Sheschko just went to Manchester United after the last couple of years. I just I I have such a pride in at least being able to say that I was working in a team with these guys. You know, I'm the last person to say because of me, they're there. That I don't I just don't subscribe to that. There's too many, there's too many factors. And second of all, the player is always, always, always the most responsible for his success. I think there's nothing that is more important to repeat to any psychologist is you might be a piece of a puzzle, you might be an important piece of the puzzle. At the same uh in the same breath, these guys I just mentioned, they are absolute top football players. They're absolute top footballers. And in any way that I feel that I contributed to their success, I'm just very proud of that. That's something really great. And it was really heartbreaking also to see them go because they're just, you know, there was there was really good really good uh enjoying enjoyment to have them in in Leipzig. Um, I know I wasn't the only one sad to see them go. I'm sure there's many ex uh uh colleagues of mine and friends that were and even fans that were very upset as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Transient nature of football these days, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Exactly, exactly. And um, but I was just really, really grateful for these types of things. And and then you know now it's kind of been time to say goodbye, but you know, we made the cut. The the the club wanted uh you know, spoke to them, and it was a difficult, very difficult season. Uh, they made best of you know, complete coaching change. And um it was really just also they said they kind of wanted a different profile and my position, and uh you know, wish me all the best. It was no no bad blood in this sense. I think it really gave me uh gave me this kind of push and to say, okay, well, what is next? Yeah, what is the next motivation? What is the next fixing? And then it is to say, okay, well, I have this experience, I have this knowledge. It is then to say, all right, I'm gonna reach out. I want to work with the top, top players. I know I can do it, I've done it. And that's my goal is to say, okay, you're maybe someone either at, let's say, an RB Leipzig level, where you are definitely one of the upper epsilon of uh of European football. Maybe not the top, top, top, but you're saying, okay, I'm up there and I want to, I want to get, I want to get to that next step. And maybe um an experienced mental trainer is that guy who's that piece of the puzzle, right? I absolutely trust myself to do that, and and that's kind of where I want to go now is again in the background, I'm not gonna have my name uh on any uh in any public uh fashion with with with that uh with those type of players. Uh I don't think it's necessary. I just think it's my own, because it's it's not about proving to other people that I can do it. It's literally saying, I know I can do this and and I wanna I wanna do it. I have a lot of fun doing it. I really I really really take great yeah, pride is of course one thing, but just enjoyment and and feeling like you you are really contributing to somebody achieving their dream.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah, that sense of the player is responsible for his own excess and and you are you you are a contributor and and kind of helping is is the kind of the word I've underlined there, the kind of the the want to to help the motivator the motivation to help almost as much as possible in kind of like an an egoless egoless way. And I I might just bring a a conversation that we had previous to starting the recording into the into the fray here because I think it's a really interesting one to study. So when you were on Dan Abraham's podcast, you talked about printing out these A1 photos that told the story of I think the kind of the halfway point of the season when the new manager came in to to the kind of the the end point. And was this just before cup final? Yeah. Please take the the story on from here because I was I was fascinated to then hear that you actually didn't take the the credit for doing this, even though it had a very high visceral impact on the players.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Honestly, as you said, I I didn't tell anyone I was doing it. I I told the media, I had a couple guys in the media to help me out. I did speak to the assistant coaches to get approval on each photo. I said, these are the photos that I want to use. Yeah. And basically, you know, there was this this this massive uh undertaking to get these these pictures, and it didn't didn't come cheap either. But I the at that time the club, as I said, was so desperate. It's a harsh word, but you know, they had been to the cup finals twice. This is the third time. We had just lost a semifinal in Glasgow that we really thought we we would would be the better team, and so we had this big disappointment just kind of on our on our on our shoulders. And they just they just wanted this title, they wanted the title more than anything. And I asked, you know, what had been done in the past couple times, and they said, nah, they've tried to keep it really, really low-key. There was no big motivational speech, there was no this, nor is that. And again, um, I'm not someone that doesn't uh very, very, very rarely it had to be a very extreme scenario that I would be standing in the middle of a locker room and and you know, giving an alpacino or get one for get one for the gipper or something speech. So it's like, okay, well, how can you have an effect? And you know, we talked about this the idea of let's I think I mentioned in the paragas that I spoke to one of the very key players, and I said, let's focus on not just the positive uh elements of the season, but also there were lots of harsh moments where we learned from them. And so we have all this, including by the way, the picture there was a picture of the loss in the semifinals to uh to Rangers. Yeah, what a what a pull, what a beautiful place. I don't know if there's any Rangers fans whoever are still listening to this I always laugh because I've been to both uh I've been to Celtic twice, I've been to Ibrox once and uh Celtic Park and uh just absolute football uh shrines. I just unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable. I've been to many, many state, unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Uh and uh so you you and your team are on the receiving end that time.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But that was honestly. Uh but again, it's you take it, I'm saying you take it with you. Like a goosebumps got goosebumps thinking about eyebrows right now. Uh that was on that was that was just unfathomable. And one thing I can mention though is so we get all this set up, the players come in, they look at it looking around, we win the cup, everyone's happy, coming back or whatever. And you know, players are taking the pictures home with them, they like them, they didn't even ask, they just took them. Um, and nobody really was just so in a you know in a good mood, and then nobody really cared. And uh, you know, we had a parade, all this nonsense. And the next season starts, and I show up. One of McClare says to me, He's like, Hey, the he's like, the those pictures are pretty cool. Uh, I got a couple in my in my in my apartment hanging up, and I was like, Oh yeah, I was like, I'm glad you guys really like that. I was like, it was a lot of work. And he goes, What do you mean it's a lot of work? And I explained, I was like, I did that. I was like, I thought you guys, I thought somebody would have told you at a point that I had done that. They said, No. And it's just no, like nobody ever knew, and I didn't really, you know, I never felt necessary, like it didn't really matter. Like, we I got what I yeah, the most thing I wanted than anything was to win that cup. That was that was the goal. Um, it's diddly uh to focus on at that with the posters, you know, who know who knows how much the posters had an effect. Was it 1%? Was it 10%? Was it who knows? A fascinating couple stories. There's so many great psychological stories out of that of that cup game. I can't can't go into them right now. I I'd I'd like to, if if you don't mind though, I'd like to talk about the this the second cup.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

I had said before as well that uh there's something there that I think is very before before you do, before you go into the the second cup story, I do just want to to round off a reflection on this this story about the posters, because uh you know you talked about a kind of a motivation that I think a lot of young sports psychologists, but I think just a lot of young people who want to get into sport in general, whether it's sports science or whether it's sports marketing or or physio, you know, there is an allure to those environments. And yeah, why would you not want to be close to it and in it? Because you're you know you're at the peak of performance, you're surrounded by very inspiring individuals who've gone through a lot of challenges and a lot of hardship to get to where they have. But I th from my perspective, you know, and I worked many, many years in sports marketing, I do think that passion for the area that you're in does also need to be tempered with the exact role that you are delivering. And that that also needs to be a passion area because if you are a sports marketer and you love sport, but you have no passion or interest in diagnosing a business or marketing problem or doing an audience segmentation or learning how you foster great creativity in communications, you you're not going to thrive, in my put my opinion, in that environment. And and I do meet a lot of young sports psychologists who talk a lot about you know their own sporting careers and how that didn't work out, and the next best thing is to go into sports science or sports psychology. And I'm waiting for the bit where they talk to me about how they also want to help people because I think that you know it it is fine to be to be passionate about being in the these areas, but also as a you know, anyone with a psychology or you know, even kind of mental performance coach, you know, attached to their name, ultimately you're trying to help people to do something, to to work out a problem, to make a change in their life, to unlock new understanding or insight about who they are or the environment with which they're in. And that kind of that passion for for helping also needs to be important. I just I love these stories when I hear someone who's who's done something, who's had the effect, but they're willing to take a uh a complete step back and let someone else take the credit, or even just no one to take the credit at all, because the impact and the effect that they they wanted from their work has happened, and there was no there was no necessity or need for you to be the one that got that that glory. So I I just hope anyone listening who's on the early part of their journey can take a lot of inspiration from that that story. I certainly was. But yes, let's talk about the second cup final because I know there's a there's another story that you want to to share.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Yeah, there's uh there is a wonderful quote by the way, uh, just to try to comment on that first before I move on. It's it's amazing what you can accomplish when you don't care who gets the credit. And and uh it's a nice quote, yeah. Um I actually I'll take the credit for this. I actually had this uh put up on one of the on the trade at the training grounds um at RB Leipzig as one of the so there were certain quotes that we could put around. Yeah, that was one that I put around just simply because I thought this is what I like to define a team as is being able to just do your job and you're gonna have so much fun and have so much glory and success because you don't care if someone says you're the reason that they won, or he's the reason they won, or they're the reason. It's really, it's really about the about the collective. And it's a very it's it's it is a very difficult thing to to really create and and but it's a great lead in to to like I said the second cup. The second cup is a very different Michelina was a different coach even. So Dedesco was there for the first coach, uh, for the first title, and then shortly into the next season he was he was let go and Marco Rosa came and um had a very, very successful start when he got there. First game at least, and then there was it was a little bump. We we we got we got knocked around a bit by by a smaller club, Gladbach, and then uh had to go to Madrid. Was not a that was not an easy easy start before we had a little international break. Um but then fast forward to the to the title run and we were in the quarterfinals against uh Dortmund. We had just tied or lost against Mainz, a smaller club. We had another game before that was not good. We're just not performing well. Dortmund was was performing quite well at the time. And um, yeah, I mean, I let's put it this way we found the coaching staff together, and Marco to his credit, at a time where it was it was it was critical, found uh a very unifying message to get the boys to to really burn and just be on fire for this match. And they showed it if you watch that game, it's one of our best matches of the of the season. And the crazy thing is we were up one-nothing quite early, and we could have been up five-nothing by halftime, maybe something, and we end up having to uh we score the two nothing um basically on a 95, 95th minute quarter kick uh uh uh counterattack as they bring everybody forward. And you know, it's like one of those kind of scenarios. And but it just galvanized this team even more. And and and again, talking about who gets the credit, I remember going into the final and uh I had kind of I'll put it this way, we we decided to make like a um like a little internal motivational video like like typical like people do but uh one of the things that we were uh we decided to do instead of instead of just showing highlights the typical things and look at how confidence or confidence confidence is confidence is great don't get me wrong uh but there's there's things like vulnerability and trust that are much much greater uh vulnerability and trust uh in each other is is is gonna be absolutely uh more valuable to you on the pitch when when it gets hard when it gets tough when when when you need to really perform uh with each other and so what I did is I kind of tricked the boys into saying that we're gonna make like a season I I didn't let's say put it this way I didn't actually tell them I but I was in the background again and I said okay I'm gonna ask the media department very secretly they're going to invite the players in groups of two or three and give a summary of the season you know just and it's gonna be maybe something for the fans or something you know just make something up that they then they say okay yeah maybe it's a media appointment it's fine yeah okay so anyway they all show up and I get a bunch of the staff on board too they have the little staff so there's no some of the physios and and and everyone around to try to get this entire entire environment involved and and at one point the questions they start saying things like or the interviewers start saying so who's your player of the season and they talk about another player you know and they say oh he was the better player of the season he was amazing and they say okay and uh who's maybe like what do you think about this defender what are his qualities and then you know they're kind of in the middle very rarely do players talk about someone who plays the same position as them in in in any type of public way in a in a they'll say yeah they'll say nice things but they won't maybe be that direct and that positive about he's really good at this he's really good at that and what we had is and you have to imagine this is towards the end of the season everybody wants to play in this final there's just just there's no this is how a team works everybody wants to play everybody wants to be on that pitch everybody wants to make a difference they could not stop saying great things about each other I had I had the interviewers who told me they're like I I have so much material I gotta figure out how to get this cut. I gotta figure out how to get this done and you know we had two days until we're going to the hotel in Berlin to get this final and I really you know we ended up showing them the video it was you know 15 20 minutes or so at first I told them it was I think it was 18 minutes they were like oh my god Pete 18 minutes what are how many goals how many goals can we watch how many assists you know how many things can we watch and then they realized what it was as soon as it came on and they started seeing like the interviews they kind of started you know laughing a bit and chuckling and then I realized it got really very serious and they just were just really they were absolutely tone like tuned in to each other talking of to themselves talking about each other really caring about each other really really saying things that maybe they if you just ask them sit around a room and say it would really maybe struggle a bit and um what I'd like to say is at the end of the movie they all start uh yeah I say I'll say this I say just a couple things to it and tell them how important it is to have this grati the gratitude that they've shown the vulnerability that they've shown in this video that this is the thing that that really creates champions these are the things that really makes makes a team a team and I just wish them very you know good luck and and they they clapped and and I'll tell you there's the only reason I knew this was really effective is they clapped and clapped for a little bit longer than normal but then they stayed they stayed seated and anyone who's worked with any any men's team or anybody's team knows that there's a presentation and then it's in a hotel and the end of the night something like that. It's normally clap clap claps okay and they all start landing up and go they just stayed seated for a bit I think it was this moment of just like okay yeah okay we got this we got this and um and it paid off I think in one in one thing just to round out the story I remember there was um we didn't play a great first half it was basically a stalemate against Frankfurt and one thing I'll share from an insider thing that was just amazing is one player stood up on it without saying any names who didn't play a lot that season but you know was a was a pretty good voice in the locker room and he just said hey guys we're not playing good football we know we play a lot better football than this we know we can play better football than this so let's play good football and we're gonna win this game and it was you could it was just silent and they were just kind of like started you know nodding their head yeah hell yeah yeah and then they kind of like they gave like a really like a a cool confident clap and then like started talking to each other and it changed the tone in the in the locker room and and I just felt for me that possibly what happened the day before the night before of them watching this was yeah I can anyone can talk I can talk I have something important to say I can change the temperature in this room I can have an effect on this room and we ended up going out and playing a solid second half and and and and winning that thing to nothing and um again just to talk to take it back to the other one it's not about whether it was 1% 25 10 it doesn't matter at the end of the day it's that player who stood up and said something who probably had the greatest effect. Yeah right it's just kind of our hopes of uh as as psychologists that maybe we gave him that that little bit of of a of a push to trust himself to say something maybe we gave everyone in the room enough of a push to open their ears and listen to him even if he didn't play many minutes this season. And so um that's something I just I I really struck me as a team that had absolutely understood the importance of what a psychological stable flexible is probably my favorite word flexible environment is about that's a lovely story.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

It's a lovely story. So I mean you've just mentioned the environment this is probably a good pivot point to to talk about your experiences in various environments, various clubs with different coaches, different athletes with presumably different value systems and different kind of historical artifacts that influence the value systems within those organizations what what does a psychologically informed environment or a psychologically flexible environment in your your words look like for you what elements or or ingredients would you would you bake into it?

SPEAKER_03 50:40

I mean the most important thing is that in a team every every player feels that they can communicate with every player in an open and honest way. I think that's the number one you're never going to have 100% transparency and you're never going to have a locker room where certain groups you know don't form where people get along you know there's simply language is going to always separate certain people at the international level at the greater level but belief systems value systems are going to separate uh people age is gonna you know those who have kids and talk about dropping their kids off at the at the at the kindergarten are are gonna obviously have that's how people connect they just have things in common to bitch about you know for throughout the day right yeah so it's very yeah it's very common that these things happen you know guys who've been on the team for six years are gonna be closer than guys who've been around for maybe a year or two. Yeah however a a very flexible environment is this the is this open communication um the ability to really absorb and that's a flexibility to absorb losses negative emotions negative press and and and really uh let's say not turn on each other but really focus on on on on staying strong as a team and then honestly one of the other things is probably to to open your mouth when you need help to be able to recognize that we need help we need to take care of something and uh and and whatever specialist is needed whether it's a medical issue whether it's a psychological issue whether it's a coaching issue whether it's a it's an individual coach uh I want to I want to communicate about you know set pieces I want to communicate about uh the attack the defense whatever so you know you can even do these things you know there's nothing better than a coach and uh for a coach than when he feels he's in tune with his team on what they want what they feel their strengths are how they feel they can they can uh carry out um their their their strengths right so this is this is the basic the most basic important parts of a of a very psychologically flexible environment and and and high performance teams so open open and honest communication the ability to absorb negative emotions and keep keep moving forward and then there's I mean I I read this as a I know it's a term that's that's overused but a psychological safety piece around feeling safe to be able to put your hand up when you need help or or ask for something or to to give your opinion. Yeah and even probably even to that point um there was there was the one season where I felt there was two players I know specifically at one position and it was always kind of unsure which one's gonna come and but they had an excellent relationship. And for example the one didn't speak German very well the other one uh uh did he was he was German and he would translate for him uh during practices they would sit there and he'd be you know translating for him open for you know taking oh we want to do this you gotta do this oh that saying you know he could have been like you know good luck man um yeah and he wasn't in any way whatsoever and so these are things that uh exactly but this again I feel like this environment wouldn't have accepted him being different this environment the characters in that environment would have seen that as an affront to their values if he would have acted different if he would not have translated for him if he would have uh rejected uh him and a fair let's say uh uh you know a fair competition for the first position right so this is uh yeah this is this is again these are things that don't come easy me talking about them you know I've I've been in teams where it's it's worked really well and I've been in teams where it it hasn't worked well and it's it's maybe been there even disintegrated and um you as a psych it's not like you have complete control over these situations and any in anyone who would say that I would I would honestly like to hear how they believe they can they can they can have full control. It's it's it's a very it's it's a very desirable environment. A lot of good things have to a lot of good people um also have to come together and just like I said how the players are responsible for developing themselves to come to you know those great clubs a team is also responsible to regulate itself to create that environment and and our job is moreover to be kind of a little bit of orchestrators and and contributors and and move pieces as best we can and and and really to maybe just inform them when necessary of what's going wrong uh what seems to be uh where where do the issues seem to be maybe maybe you can try you know asking one player or talking to a group of experienced players maybe we can try to pull them in in this way maybe we can communicate in that way uh but again at the end of the day uh you're completely you'll always be dependent on those characters to carry out uh like any coach any coach is the same thing he has a beautiful tactical ability uh he has to do his best to communicate to his players and he can maybe be the most eloquent coach he can have the beautiful tactics um but as we say you can lead a horse to water you can't always make him drink yeah yeah exactly I love the the anecdote again and the story about the the two players vying for the the one position but but the the one being incredibly supportive and facilitating it does it does kind of make me think of there's a player in the UK at the moment I I I really hope he he manages to to survive the the stardom then it looks like he's he's walking into a guy called Max Dalman um who plays for Arsenal he's 15 and he's he's already kind of cracking the first team but it it's really lovely to to read there's a a few um few articles and and blogs knocking about that are talking about how much Declan Rice as a a senior member of the Arsenal team is trying to take this guy under his wing having had a very similar experience at West Ham being an incredibly talented young guy having to to deal with you know all of these things that you know very very few 15 year olds are ever going to have to deal with you know the um absolutely kind of the the the limelight the the meet the media interviews you know one would presume many many young women or men um throwing themselves at um at him and and everything in in between and you know that support doesn't always like you say have to come from the the sports cycle the coach it could be the you know the another cultural architect within that environment like the like the the captain or um in in Declan Rice's case uh you know a senior senior leader within the team who's had a similar experience absolutely absolutely exactly so i just wanted to say my my PhD was specifically in in in environments and and uh I've I piggybacked on and Henriksen's work from um from Denmark where the the the greatest facilitating factor for someone to make it to the elite level seems to be proper mentorship uh someone who's two three years older who who kind of shows him the ropes um you know he did his work in kayaking I did mine in in in in football and uh absolutely those are the people I try to identify as best as possible um and and get them get them into that position to help those who are maybe just a couple steps below them and and again it's it's it's a it's a scary proposition for some some some players because they say you want me to you want me to help this guy who basically wants my job kind of a contra you know counterintuitive for for a lot of them um but yeah this is this is this and this but this is the gig right this is the job is to to uh to make it to make it well to make it work what one of the things we so see though is that those those mentors those people who do try to help those below them they tend to learn a great deal themselves um they tend to reflect very much themselves it's not just a one way street exactly and they tend to develop themselves very very well they become more mature they they have a greater sense of humility uh they they they improve their own work ethic so there's um it's again yeah it's not a one-way street by any way by any means um and it's often very well rewarded uh personally for that player and and and for the club itself right yeah I love that so in in the spirit of giving back let's pretend you're mentoring the people that are listening to this uh this podcast this is my my tenuous link into the final final question which is things that have inspired you whether it's a book a podcast a movie a TV show something that has impacted you the most personally or or professionally we're collecting all of these things like a little Aladdin's cave of of resources on on the podcast so uh feel free to to contribute contribute your book or podcast movie tv show whatever it is can I do two really quickly yeah yes if I if I have to how dare you yeah two's great um there's because there's there's two and it's it's the I can say exactly which they are the the the two are sacred hoops Philip uh uh Jackson yeah um coached uh 11 titles I think between the Lakers and and uh um it's 11 yeah between them and and the and the bulls and you know he just opened my mind completely into you know people talk about his mindfulness a practicing Buddhist I think wasn't he and exactly exactly and he's just a wonderful it seems just like a wonderful uh human being at least from from what you know what I'm able to read and very articulate yeah and working with these just unbelievable talented people and the the conviction he had to say this is the environment this is how we're gonna do it this is what I believe in and this is how we're gonna win games you know of course you add the tactical uh ability that he he brought which is you know uh which is also important that it seems to me like his absolute um loyalty to what he believed and and and the way in which he wanted people to really get in touch Kobe Bryant of course benefited amazingly from this and and as well as you know Michael Jordan's got to be piping all these big giant names where they just kind of bought into the system he was so passionate they just bought into it and I just I love that and the book is does a really great job I think of of kind of you know I think it's really good for coaches I think it's good for for psyches it's probably good for players as well no doubt I just think it's uh it's a wonderful wonderful look the other one that is a little maybe you know it's more I I it's more uh football directed okay but it has a very similar idea for me is called inverting inverting the pyramid and it's about tactics uh came out came out more towards the beginning of my my career and it was uh a Finnish um let's say um colleague of mine he gave me he was working in in hockey and he he said I think you'd like this book I said okay I'll take a look and you know I'm not really into tactics uh you know I played I played yeah did play football a lot of my life but not really into tactics and I said all right and the book struck me in the most philosophical way about about how I work and that's because it talks about how it used to be eight strikers and two defenders and uh in in old English football. And of course there's also stories about how the I think the Scots uh used to basically start passing the ball and the English were like you can't pass the ball that's that's you know that's for the weak or things like that. But of course uh it was much faster much more effective way of playing and but it go you know it goes on it talks about how it used to be like this and you know you go from decade to decade to decade and it's inverted now this pyramid now you have yeah you know a feeling of eight defenders and two strikers um of course you know a couple midfielders in between but I love the the the the point of the book is the the way that this game has evolved the way people think about the game has evolved the way in which effective football has has has evolved and and football is just such a you know it's a it's a it's a it's a game of the people in in Europe it is such a it is such a mob mentality of that's the way you have to do things this is the way it has to happen you know what I and every 10 years or so I feel like there's a new uh whether it's pressing high pressing uh and counterpressing from Jürgen Klopp that came in or Pep Guardiola's Tiki Taco but you know whatever there's just always some new thing that kind of comes in and mob mental you gotta do this yeah you gotta do this you gotta do that. Where I take it for psychology what I love it so much is it really psychology wants to get into the world of football. Football doesn't always want to have psychology this is slowly changing very more and more and more I say slowly honestly it's it's it's gone very well it's it's it's getting very far I I think it's not it's not completely as I would say inverted yet but it basically when I was getting into my career it made me realize I said okay I'm going into football clubs where this isn't the norm. They think you should be playing with eight strikers and two defenders and I'm coming in and basically saying you should be playing with uh eight defenders and two strikers. I need to realize that this transition needs to happen this is this is this is I can be hopeful that's going to happen. It needs time to happen but if I go in to the mob and tell them they need to play with eight defenders they're gonna say you're in you're insane. You have you have no business being here you don't understand football you don't know what's going on. And so I've taken that with me wherever I've gone to really have this reflection of remember your position remember who you are remember who you're talking to and and never be offended if someone doesn't seem to understand what exactly you're trying to say maybe they still have a little bit of this this mentality that we should be having eight strikers. Maybe they still have this maybe they're thinking this is just this is how things are supposed to be done.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

Great.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:08

It's a really wonderful book I think it's just really entertaining for anybody who likes especially who likes football but really taking that philosophical thing uh has really has helped me greatly over the years.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Great stuff well I haven't read that book so I'll be getting a copy myself. Enjoy it you'll enjoy it I guarantee it. Inverting the pyramid and say I haven't read sacred hoops I've read 11 rings great book tool great book tool um um by by Phil Jackson and yeah absolutely absolutely was enthralled by that so thank you so much for for sharing those resources they will get posted as well along with the link to your website and where you are on the internet so people can go and find you and thank you for sharing all of your knowledge and your experience from this fascinating journey you've you've been on from Michigan to Finland to Germany and up through the divisions and To Ibrox and Manchester. It's um a hell of a path you've taken, and uh I wish you uh an uh an incredible amount of of fortune and and good luck on as your path uh moves forward into private practice and um I'm sure you'll be a great success. Thank you so much, thank you, uh Pete, for coming on on the podcast. Thank you very much, Pete, for having me. Good man. Right then, I'm off to go and order a copy of Inverted V Pyramid. Uh thanks again, Pete. And uh yeah, we'll have to uh we'll have to have a check-in conversation down the road. I feel there's so much more to uh to talk about, but thank you so much again for uh for coming on the podcast. Gladly, yeah. Have a good one, okay? Good man,

Reflection

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

cheers. Well, there you have it, the first slice of pie for 2026 and a cracker to start the year with, if I don't say so myself. With all the constant dizzying news, drama, and entertainment in high-level European football, it was incredibly insightful to peek behind the curtain just for a second through Peter's reflections and anecdotes. Now, one of the things that really stood out to me was Peter's perspective on athletes moving from almost hero-worshipping them at the start of his career to seeing them as real, everyday, fallible, and inverted, commas normal human beings living extraordinary lives in extraordinary circumstances. But still, fundamentally, people like you and me, despite what you might glean from 60 seconds spent on Twitter or other social platforms or the comment sections, it sounds simple, but it's a profound shift and one that has shaped his practice. Now, this is a constant reflection I've had since entering an industry that whilst has the exciting word sport in the title, also has the word psychologist, a word associated with helping, with guiding, with supporting. In essence, the reflection is why do we do this work? And why would young people enter this field? Of course, working with a Champions League football club would be incredible, but why do we want that? Is it to prove something to others, to gain a sense of status, or because there's something intrinsically valuable in being in an environment, as Peter put it, full of people who have battled adversity, mastered their craft, and inspire you every day. And Peter reminded me that it's that latter motivation, the passion for the area, but also combined with a passion for your role in it that really drives impact. And as Peter noted in the episode, as Harry S. Truman once said, it's amazing what you can accomplish when you don't care who gets the credit. Another thing that really resonated was his description of those doorway moments, going into an elite environment where everything seems set up, and asking yourself, do you have the guts to walk through that door? And that phase has really stuck with me. It captures that blend of courage, curiosity, and preparedness that underpins performing or working in applied practice at the highest level. And I'll be thinking about Peter as I walk through my next life or career doorway. And it's not just about the big moments, Peter's story is about I think the word he used was silly, silly locations like the transit bus on the way from the plane or the process of making motivational videos with players reminded me that creativity, thoughtfulness, and collaboration are just as critical as critical as technical knowledge. Engaging coaches, media teams, and athletes in the process not only makes interventions more impactful but also strengthens team bonds. So some really beautiful and vivid stories from his time at Leipzig there. Finally, the key takeaway from this episode I think is really just a simple one. Passion for what you do, but also for your role in doing it, combined with creativity, humility, and a genuine focus on people, is what makes applied sports psychology work, or really kind of any applied consultancy practice, or any just applied practice. So I suppose if you add up people with all of these intentions and all of these interactions infused with these principles, all of that may very well in itself go a long way, way, a long way towards making a psychologically informed environment. Right, I'll stop tripping over my words and get to the end of this episode. So that's all from me for this one. Thanks for tuning in and benefiting from Peter's fantastic knowledge, wisdom, and stories. Until next time, take care, and if you have been, thanks for listening.