Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hello and welcome back to the Slice of Pie podcast, where the pie is the psychologically informed environment, and the mission is to try and further our understanding of what that might look like in sport, in business, or in any environment where performance and well-being are hot topics. And in this episode, we shine an intriguing light on motorsports and specifically Formula One. So, who is going to let us under the bonnet of the Formula One world? Well, we are very, very fortunate to get the Insight Insight Track by Dr. Robbie Anderson, Head of Performance Psychology at Hintster F1 programmes, as well as founder and director of his own company, Performing Minds. Now reading out the rest of Robbie's achievements and experiences could be a podcast episode in itself. Some of his notable previous positions include first team performance psychologist at QPR, head of psychology at Ineos Grenadiers Cycling, and psychology lead at England Rugby as well. Then you can just throw in positions with GB Taekwondo and GB Canoeing, as well as positions in the private sector in the world of hedge fund management, and a decades-long stint working with Steve Peters at Chimp Management, where he was latterly the managing director. And you have a podcast guest with an awful lot to shine a light on. And we did cover an awful lot as well, to the extent that this conversation was enough to fill two bumper episodes of Slicer Pie. So this first part will be going out in June, and we'll try and get the second part of the interview edited and on the channel by the end of the summer. So stay tuned for part two once you've extracted all of Robbie's great insights from this first peek under the hood. Right, that's enough preamble and motorsports puns. Let's get into the episode with Dr. Robbie Anderson.

Interview

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Robbie, thanks for joining Slice Supply. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

I'm very good. Thank you very much. Yeah, and it's uh good to be on with you as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

How are you? Very well, thanks. Very well. I can't remember where we met originally. I think it was at a conference. It was always one of I always remember clearly finding you such an engaging and kind of warm, interesting personality. The people you meet at conferences, you go, okay, that's a really solid, solid bloke and a very smart, switched-on person. I think it was quite a long time ago. So it's nice to to reconnect and and talk about the many, many things that you've done in your career up to date. Very topical, I would say, with the kind of the kickoff to the Formula One season. That's one of the places that you're working at the moment. So it'd be cool to get into that at some point. But before we get into all of that, uh please let the listener.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Oh Pete, you're gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna have to first and foremost say I would be really uncomfortable without saying a big thank you for that. That's very kind, first and foremost. Um, I appreciate that. The other thing, as well, is when you offered me to come on, I'll be really honest. I thought, right, you know, the best thing for me to do here is is absorb some of your podcast. And I've been really enjoying riding. Um, it's been about a year now, hasn't it? I think we last spoke. It was certainly um when I first was doing some of the work in this area. So anyway, I've been listening to it and I've been really enjoying it. I think you're doing some great conversations. And without it getting, you know, all too friendly off the off the off the bat, I just want to say thanks very much. Looking forward to today, and also looking forward to having a bit of a deeper conversation with you because those conferences are are often very light touch. So thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

They are, they are, yeah. Looking forward to getting into it. And I'll give you that 20 quid later for saying that you've been listening to the podcast and enjoying it. Um, and that's always always a reflection mostly of the guests that have come on. But I'll I'll take 10% of the applaud that's there. Thank you. Before we get into all of the many different environments that you've worked in and some of the the cool stuff in Formula One, et cetera, just let the listeners know where they can find you online, where they can find your work, your website, etc. And any anything else worth flagging that you're working on at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, I think the the honest and simple answer is probably LinkedIn. Um, I do keep things fairly simple. I found there's lots of demands on time. And from my personal experience, I I have found um socials and time on it to not be advantageous for where I need to be putting my time and effort. So it's a relatively streamlined social presence. But yeah, LinkedIn, my company, Performing Minds, is where I'm doing most of my consultation now. And that's what it's on website, performingminds.com. But again, I'll be honest, it other than an extended business card, I really do try and keep most of my you know connections, relationships through conversation, probably at the moment, rather than content. So yeah, LinkedIn, the website, or just direct if we get a chance to have a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Good stuff, good stuff. And the performing minds that's been going since kind of 2024, so relatively recent last couple of years. That that going well so far?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

I had such a privileged uh over a decade working with uh Steve Peters and teaching management. I was employee number one there, which meant that I came from you know education and and a little bit of freelance consultancy, but looking back on it, I was, you know, I was I was just a young guy doing my best for some mental skill stuff. Went behind the ears. Yeah, very, very. Oh, I was I was in the deep end uh without without my goggles. And um, I think what I found at chip management, obviously, like I said, was a really supportive company, loads of obviously very good learning and lots of very good client base. And it kept me there for a long time and I was really happy with that. But equally, it came a point probably in my career where uh and my life, my life, where I just felt like I really wanted my own autonomy. You know, I just just wanted final say on on my days, on my time, uh, on my clients, on my approach, and obviously on my work. And so, yeah, that's why in 2024 um the right opportunities became available. You know, they always say, should you trust the branch you're standing on or should you trust your wings to fly? And it was time for me to go. So yeah, but 2024. But I've been enjoying it and again, happy to get into it today. I mean, as a as a sports psych, which I know many of the audience members might be, it's one of those classic kind of conundrums, you know, do you do you do an institution-based um model, or do you go on your own and and um I'm enjoying it, I'm enjoying it.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah, good stuff. Yeah, there's so many different ways to do it from what I've observed so far. The people that I've met in the industry seems to be a big variety of how people piece it together. And sometimes those things change over time. And yeah, clearly, uh as you've said, you're in a point where you you want to trust the the wings a bit and and have a bit of a autonomy, and that that fits for you in your life at the moment. So that's that's super exciting. So let's kind of let's slingshot on then to some of the stuff you're working on at the moment. Obviously, very topical with the Formula One season having just kicked off. I think we've talked offline about the excitement of some of the changes that have that have happened. Lewis Hamilton was in the the press this week saying how he's really enjoying some of the changes, where some of the drivers are maybe less enthusiastic. I think he feels like he's almost teleporting back to some of his go-karting days. That change that's kind of precipitated this different experience for drivers, fans, that obviously throws up challenges, opportunities, different things to talk about, I'm sure, within your world. But yeah, just give the listeners a little bit of context. How did that kind of happen? You're getting into Formula One, and then what are the kind of the things that you've learned about that environment and that world so far that that stand out, that interest you?

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah, I mean, entry into it was was really um just a fantastic opportunity whereby um, you know, a phone call came, um, uh Andy Harrison, uh uh Hintsa, Hintsa are a kind of a sports science and medicine provider, and they predominantly act in in motorsport. They do the work in other sports. So Andy got in search and was, hey Robbie, you know, you've been shortlisted for stepping in as our you know lead psychologist, kind of almost that head of performance psychology. And, you know, would you be interested in interviewing? So I suppose nothing more complicated than that. One thing that I didn't immediately come uh directly with to Andy on that call, and Andy is well, Anti Konsat. So Anti Konsas, again, uh very well established in F1. He would have been Sebastian Vettel's performance coach, um, numerous other drivers. So so Anti and Andy are my interviewers. The one thing I didn't tell them was, and I I can be honest about this, I I was not following Formula One avidly right at that moment in time. And that that's because, as you know, when you work in sport, I think that time I was still with uh Ineos Grenadiers, which is kind of formerly Team Sky. Yeah, you know, you're very, very embedded, you know, you're on the road a lot, you're watching the sport, maybe you've got your own family, you've got your own football team, whatever. So I did what any sensible person would do, and I binge watched Drive to Survive, which is a great privilege because I don't know if there's many sports which have got such a highly edited now eight season, you know, insight to the world you're about to go into. You know, that wasn't available in in other sports.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

As interview prep goes, I mean, and if you you've got your your your partner or your kids or your your friends, you know, asking about your your daily slog and uh prepping for that interview, not a bad experience.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

I certainly had to lock myself away. Um, but you know, pop popcorn and and and the pen and paper, the three P's. So what was really interesting, actually, again, just taking myself back in time there, was I could immediately recognize the amount of opportunities, potentially, obviously, we don't know the people yet and the environment. I could just see how important psychology was going to be in that world. Um, I had a predecessor, uh, Chris Gooder, again, an old colleague of mine. He'd been in this role, so he was coming out. So again, I had a really good um kind of first hand experience and and you know, insights and everything else. So that's how I got into it, interviewed and was successful, which is just again a great privilege. Went on to a Grand Prix, uh, shadowed auntie, you know, asked him all the classic questions. What on earth, what on earth do I wear? Where do I stand? Uh, who's who? You know, and and and it's funny because every single contract I've ever had, I don't think it matters how experienced you are, and maybe just me and my personality, I asked the same questions, you know, where am I standing in the changing room? What time do you want me on the bus? And and and that was fine. So massive learning curve. The other thing I'd say though is from day one, I was seriously impressed by the people in in all levels. So really impressed by my colleagues at Hintsa, you know, just very straight onto it. Coaches, you know, really interested and curious about what the next phase was going to look like when we're in there. Um, clients-wise, you think to yourself, well, what's what are these people gonna be like? How receptive are they gonna be? I actually joined mid-season, though it's kind of early season, April time. Oh, okay. So they were already up and racing, and it was just almost like a if you're here, you've been vetted, we're getting on with it. So again, massively privileged. Um, and now a couple of years later, kind of third season in, again, really happy to share some insights. But it it's been it's been brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

It's interesting. You talking about the simple fundamental mental questions. I think for any early career sports sites listening to this, that might just be a really validating thing to hear that someone of your experience already coming from a head of psychology role at Ineos, and the the first thing you do in this new quite high-profile position is to ask very simple questions about what do I wear and where do I stand and what times I want to be on the bus. It's great to surface some of those. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

You you you you sorry, you'll get a lot of that from me, by the way. I'm not I'm not here to pretend that we're in some kind of high white castle. We're not, you know. I think obviously there has been some evolution and I've learned lessons in every environment I've been in. Happy to share those. But honestly, the the the more I'm enjoying my work, I think it's because you just get more comfortable. And those really like obvious questions you just start asking. And in in many ways, that makes you more impactful. Not just like where you're standing, but you know, really checking in with people, really wanting to know how the season's going. Is that how they planned it to be? You know, uh, who's the people around them? So they seem like noddy questions, but I sincerely that they are the I'd say they are like the backbone of a very present, authentic, and potentially hopefully useful practitioner. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah, it's interesting that is that I like the concept of simple questions or need to know knowledge being the backbone with which you can kind of build on top. And it just throws up so many parallels with skill acquisition or mastery in many different fields where you know you take music, for example, most world-class musicians say that you know they had to learn all of the simple stuff and get that right first before they can start messing around with it. But I imagine that's the same in in our world, you know, having a backbone of those just kind of really key basic things that you need to know and want to get clarity on before you can even kind of dig further. But in the spirit of digging further, yeah, I would love to know what stood out to you about this Formula One. And I know you've you've also mentioned offline kind of neighbouring motorsport classes of F2, F3, F4, WEC, Rally, Moto GP, etc. So whether you want to talk about motorsport as a whole or whether you just want to zero in on Formula One, what has kind of stood out to you about that world and what have you learned so far off the back of other experiences, whether it's yeah, Ineos or Rugby World Cup, Ryder Cup, etc. You know, what where is this new world kind of stood apart from those others? And what do you think you've learned so far?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

We'll keep a bit of a lens on F1 because I think it's obviously of interest to people and and understand that it kind of sometimes feels like or is broadly considered as the pinnacle of motorsport. So we'll keep an eye on it. Um, but it might it might reference the other areas. Yeah. So I mean, one of the first things that always strikes me. So coming into it from other sports, what struck me very quickly is that it combines quite a few different demands that are very prevalent in other areas, but suddenly they're all together and they're all at a very, very high level. So if I just give some examples, so you've got the precision of something like an Olympic sport, which is an A to B sport. So for example, time trialing or rowing, or um, I mean, I previously worked with GB canoeing, that was sprint canoeing. So you uh this idea of of uh qualification in a Formula One race is it's just you, there's no traffic, you start and you do your fastest lap and you finish, but the ability to execute that is pure precision, precision of braking, precision of lines, and obviously sometimes a field, an entire field of racing cars with different engines, different manufacturers, different aero. One to 15 can be split by tenths of a second. It's just insane variance. I mean, that that's less variance than the hundred meters, and that's just the hundred meters of running. This is this is um you know multiple kilometers of driving. So yeah, so precision uh and being able to execute when it counts. I then think you've got a very real element of combat. And I don't use that word lightly because again, coming from GB Taekwondo, where you are doing well if you're kicking people in the head and not so well if you're being kicked in the head. There's there's a there's a brutality of some sports we work in, boxing, yeah, where if you lose, you don't just lose um lose the game by a few goals, you actually obviously can get physically hurt. And in motorsport, thankfully the the safety record is much better now. But the idea of combat, you are racing, averages are like 150 to 180 miles per hour. They're averages, they're not the peaks, and you're doing that whilst you are trying to overtake somebody who is obviously defensively maneuvering against you. And so there is contact. And let's not forget, many of this is in a street circuit where the wall is literally centimeters from your tires at 160 miles an hour, and you're trying to overtake people. So there's combat, there's a physical aspect to this, which I don't think sometimes it quite gets the appreciation of. And then the final thing I'd say, uh, and it's hard to put this into words really because I think you have to be a slight fan of the sport to grasp it, but I think it's getting bigger now with with all the TV. It's just the huge uh presence of the sport now. So you could use the word celebrity, you know. Um there's only traditionally there's only 20 drivers this year, it's 22 with a new team, but that's it in the world. And of course, you can say names. Um, I would say them now, I'll let people think who the most famous drivers are. You would notice them in the street, wouldn't you? You know what I mean? These are people you would recognize. Yep. And so what I'm thinking there is, I'm gonna use a positive word here. I think it's leadership. I think it's self-leadership, you know, yourself and and how you get the best out of yourself. I think it's team leadership. You're the you're the face of a global brand. I mean, Ferrari, Mercedes, these are global brands, you're the face of it. And of course, it's like public leadership. You are you're you're a role model, or what you say is is heavily judged on. So, and I saw more of those kind of leadership aspects working in maybe England rugby or premiership football, where again you're a social figure, and what you say is is quite important to a nation, you represent your nation. So you've got precision, you've got combat, you've got physical, you've got mental, you've got science and you know, maximizing the body, and you've got leadership, and they're all just just there, you know, they're all just there in a form.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

The combat piece that you mentioned, I think from a viewer's perspective, I think there's an attraction there that's always existed with Formula One in terms of that jeopardy and the the danger element, but that does exist in other motorsports as well, and arguably it exists to a greater extent in places like Moto GP where you're not surrounded by you don't have a uh you don't have a halo.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

You know, a halo is the the safety mechanism in a car for people who don't watch it. That's a great safety mechanism that goes above the driver's head. Previously that wasn't there, so the part rolled. Now, you're right, Moto GP. I mean, I I worked, um, had the privilege of working with um uh an Isle of Man TT. Now, this is hundreds and hundreds of miles an hour on public roads. I mean, they're closed, obviously, in Isle of Man, and again, you're you're second you're in millimeters off some of the bridges, and unfortunately, that is one where we still see fatal accidents. Now, look, I don't want to bring attention to all the negatives. At the end of the day, life is full of risk. If you if you just thought about the risk, you wouldn't leave your house. And we know driving down the M6 is more dangerous than most things we do. So let's keep it all in perspective. But you're right, there is in motorsport, due to the speeds and and fundamentally, you know, the risks, it's real. Um, and uh when we see a wet race, for example, these things are absolutely amplified, you know, just amplified more, more, more danger. So yeah. Um but what I would say is years ago, I worked with a Red Bull athlete who was involved in in stunts. Okay. You know, we'd call them stunts. If you watched it, you think, well, that's impressive to see what they do. And they've had an injury, yeah. And what it meant was that they they needed some support to get back to doing what they had to do. And what was really interesting there, Pete, was if you were like, you know, R E B T or Rational or any kind of cognitive base stuff, you you know, you could you can bring that rationality to the table. But when you're doing something which literally has like a success or die type um, you know, kind of uh potential, then of course, yeah, the you know, the limbic system, the chimp or whatever should be saying, be careful. Like, are we sure about this? Introducing hesitancy and obviously interfering with with really automatic competency. So I found that very interesting, and that was years ago, and it helped me to think, yeah, you know, sometimes we do have to have fear, it is survival and human instinct, but with practice and exposure and sometimes regulation techniques, you know, these guys are doing amazing things, which are as natural to them as ski jumping is to a ski jumper. But you know, to an amateur, it's superhuman, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 20:27

But I'd like to come back to to that in a second, in terms of some of some of from a psychological perspective, in terms of what some of the things you might talk about with these types of athletes might be. So let's put a pin in that for a second. But I'm also intrigued at the link between the tolerance or even appetite for fear and things like physics like brain physiology and personality. Um, and and the reason why that comes to mind is I don't know whether you've seen the film Free Solo with uh Alex Honnold, the client. Yeah, do you remember the part of that what I call it document where they kind of sit him in front of a screen full of kind of quite extreme things, and they're playing this film, and I think they've they've got him hooked up to an ECG or something. And physiologically, the part of the brain that would normally kind of trigger these types of you know, kind of fear or alert responses in the way that he took that test was just hugely, hugely dulled and minimized compared to like your kind of gen pop person. So I do I wonder whether there's maybe not for for all of them, but for for some of the athletes, whether there's just like a physiological difference there, a personality difference in that that kind of that relationship with risk and and fear.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, I mean we we know I'm not gonna quite extrapolate this to like all performers, but we we we know there's there's obviously good research, fetal research, development of um you know children before birth, and we see that some are more reactive, they're more responsive. To levels of stress hormone that are present in the mum. So we see that activation present in the womb. And then others appear to be more horizontal, they're just relaxed, they're like it's all right, mum will be fine. And then when they're born, we see similar behavioral traits showing up in the you know months and years of early life. So there is predisposition to whether we call it threat sensitivity, personality profiles look at this. We know there's a genetic under underlies some of this. However, clearly experiences interact then. Um, you know, I've never been um down one of these big ski jumps where you go up in the air, and I'm sure my brain would be red, red, red if I was gonna consider it. And that's irrelevant of genetics. That's because I haven't got the experience or the confidence in it. So yeah, I agree. I think there's genetics, yeah, I think there's experience, and then I think there's skills, and that's why every single person we work with is an individual. And I don't believe there's a blueprint. I don't believe there's five steps to become an F1 driver. I just don't believe it. But that's my opinion. Maybe somebody somebody else does.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Given what you've talked about in terms of you know the need for precision, combat, pressure, celebrity, and this kind of relationship with fear and risk, which probably evolves over one's career. How does that kind of manifest in some of the work that you do and some of the the topics you might focus on or the themes that might uh arise in your work within Formula One and Motorsport?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Everything is is based on a really simple approach to performance psychology. You know, it's done on getting to know the person, it's done on a needs analysis, yeah. You know, it's done on trying to understand exactly where they are, what they're hoping to do. Are they in line with that? Are they struggling? What's the gaps? And then, of course, you know, um, again, I think we'll probably gone to this, but I look at the individual. So that's part of that work there, formulation and work, but I also look at key relationships. I think they're really important, you know. Um, can we look at the the home system and support? Maybe it's the race engineer, um, and then finding the environment. So all of the work is done on an individualized approach. Now, if one person hit is this hypothetical, but they present and they say, I've crashed my car in the last four races, yeah, and I'm just petrified of crashing again, often for performance reasons, but also for financial reasons. These are quite expensive cars. So that might become a focus of work for that individual. And you're gonna look at that in that uh presentation. But equally, you could talk to a hundred other drivers, and it just might not feature. You know, this this this idea that they're all thinking about risk is absolutely not my experience of it. To be honest with you, it's it's it I think if I did a thematic analysis, I think it would hardly ever feature compared to some other demands.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Those are, I suppose, your backbone of applied practice in terms of getting to know the person, the relationships around them, the environment, trying to understand their short-term and long-term goals and where the gaps are and where you can help. So that's really interesting, interesting to hear. And then and then that might reveal an area of focus that you you work on. I suppose some of that will be a kind of a reactive way of working with athletes or or teams in terms of finding, yeah, finding challenges or surfacing challenges in in different ways. Yeah. And some will be a proactive approach. And I know we've talked offline about the role of things like kind of simulators and and mental rehearsal. What are the kind of the proactive ways that drivers and performers in this world are kind of using psychological principles and some of the modern tools that we have to perform better, to get better at their sport?

SPEAKER_00 25:45

There is definitely the use of simulators. Um, I mean, the simulators in in formula, well, well, for exactly, you know, they might have a home simulator, um, which is a little bit like what you you might imagine seeing in an arcade, you know, where you can see the kind of seat and the handle, you know, steering wheel and everything else. Now, don't want to undervalue how different the home simulators are compared to our arcade ones. They're that you know, that they're very um when they're when they're programmed well, when they're calibrated well, they give a good um, you know, for for for race lines, for breaking points, for other kind of track-specific uh bits of information, they're really helpful. I I I've got to be careful here. I am not a driving coach, you know, I'm not here to say um what they should or shouldn't do. But what I do find is if you take uh an injured athlete, take a take a broad principal from any sport, take an injured athlete, yeah, they're gonna have some time out, um, you know, ACL reconstruction, whatever, and you say, right, we've got time, um, but we haven't got the physical. So we're gonna look at an area of your performance and we're gonna improve it, maybe through better technical awareness, uh, maybe better tactical awareness, strategy, whatever. So a rugby player says, Great, I want to improve how I close out a defensive um set up wide on a rugby pit. So very specific. So then you you watch the footage, you get the cues, and one thing they can do is they can visualize that um event multiple times. They can embed better cues for the brain to act. And hopefully, on return to rugby, once their physical attributes are up, they're actually better at this skilled area, which they would otherwise would never have done the work on if they just say, Oh, I mean, I can't do anything now. So in motorsport, we're obviously trying to use simulator to you know to give that practice because they they don't practice, you know, they can't go out in an F1 car and practice. It's one of the few sports where your racing is your time doing it. You know, there isn't like midweek practice, but there is simulator. And and for me, it's the same principle. They're they're looking to reinforce appropriate cues and appropriate responses. But what it can't do is it can't simulate rain. You know, it can't simulate some track conditions, like when they do street circuits, they're very bumpy. So that kind of uh porpersing off or turbulence in the car, different feeling. So it's just to say, again, there's some great technology that the drivers can use, but it always comes down to sort of balance of how best to use your time when there's so many demands on it. You know, no different. I probably I'd say the same in other sports that you could go into a professional football club, and the biggest challenge they'll have is managing load. You know, that's one of the biggest challenges they'll have. It's just can we have enough time with the guys on the grass, you know, without jeopardizing their fitness? And you've got this this seesaw of trying to give them enough structure and learning and and basically supporting them to perform well versus not overly stressing the body. And so even something like that elite sport, it comes down to basics of how do we basically get enough into the person to give them confidence, clarity to become performance time and motorsport is no different, it's no different than that.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

The point around you know, just simulating or or visual visualization in not just Formula One in a number of sports, being able to fill time when you don't have the physical, I think it's really interesting. Um, but also some of the limitations as well, and you know, as much as you can simulate different track circuits and where the breaking points would be, actually the smell of the rubber, yeah. Um, you know, the oil coming out the engines, the the crowd, the ambience, the bumps coming off the road. It reminds me of in NFL, which I've become a bit more of an NFL fan over the last few years after working for an American sports marketing company. Jaden Daniels, who's one of the kind of bright young quarterbacks who got drafted out of college two years ago, spent a huge amount of time in his offseason before going to the NFL on the uh the VR uh simulator, just going through loads and loads of different reps, different defense coverages, different protections, pre and post-scat, and did it on 1.5 speed. There's been a lot reported about how that might have helped him get up to speed in the NFL, having got so many reps through processing those different patterns, but also doing it at a speed that then made the real life come maybe slow down for him. But even in that situation, and I'm sure every quarterback is probably trying to replicate that now after the stories come out, but even that situation, you don't get the breath of uh you know 260-pound Aaron Donald, you know, breathing down your neck, you know, again, the kind of the feel of the grass. Are you on turf? Are you on um, you know, are you in a dome? Are you on um you know a 3G surface? And you know, all of that is is still hard to replicate.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Well, one of the things you'll you'll find there, which is which is spot on Pete, and and I agree with what you just said, the the ability to use VR or or simulator or visualization, you know, I mean the brain is probably one of the best you know recreators we've got if we can if we're good at it, particularly if we're skilled in practice. The ability to let's just use visualization broadly for now is is gonna be very effective in terms of giving your brain some practice, but obviously we need to make sure it's good practice. You know, so so the specificity of the visualization, and again, there's loads of research, isn't there, on different types of visualization and what they're helpful for, up regulating, downregulating, whatever else. So I think the specificity is very important. So if you can get a driving coach who's able to review your footage with you, look at certain parts of the track where you're maybe breaking too early or too aggressively, and then you can correct that with basically repetition and reinforcement that would have some carryover. But in cognitive training, which is an area we are we are interested in at him saying, cognitive training, we see that there is evidence that on brain training exercises, we can improve our performance on the exercise, but there still remains questions about its transferability to a different scenario. So brain uh eye training, you know, uh big thing was at England rugby. We're gonna train the guys to you know use their periphery and their their scores improved, of course. But yeah, it's very, very difficult until the day we start wearing eye scanning goggles in rugby game, very, very difficult to say that directly transferred and increased our ability. There may be subjective opinion, but at the moment that's a difficult carryover. You know, what we do know is a lot of people say, from doing this preparation, through thinking about these scenarios, I felt more primed, I felt more able to respond. So you know what I mean? There's a sweet spot in there, isn't there, between evidence base and utility, I think.

Reflection

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Well, how about that for the first slice of pie episode of the summer? Loads to take away there, particularly for trainees and early stage sports psychology practitioners, I think. I mean, for example, it was certainly very comforting and validating to hear Robbie's protest for entering a new high-profile job, a new high-profile environment, which really is just to ask the obvious questions, where do I stand and what do I wear? And there was this also this huge sense of gratitude that came across as well. I noted Robbie using the word privileged around 172 times within our conversation, which just shows the importance of always appreciating and enjoying new opportunities as well as having to deal with the stresses and the demands of getting them. And in the context of Formula One, it was super interesting to hear about the melting pot of different skills and therefore different psychological facets that are combined together in one performance domain, from the precision of breaking points to race lines and qualifications to the combat aspect of sprint and full-length races, as well as the sheer presence of the sport and the celebrity factor and everything that comes with that, the media scrutiny, the demands from team sponsors, and as Robbie said, getting to be just one of the 22 drivers on the planet to get to participate. You compare that to the over 1,000 professional footballers that are competing at the moment in the group stages of the 2026 World Cup in USA, Mexico, and Canada. So, how do you help in this unique environment? Well, some of the new fangled fancy tools at your disposal might be different from VR to simulators, but again, the process Robbie goes through involves a huge amount of curiosity couched in a holistic look at getting to know the person and their performance through a thorough needs analysis, where they are, what they're hoping to do, what they're looking to achieve, but also looking at key relationships both at home and within the team system, and that could be the fellow driver, team principal, or even race engineers, and just adding in curiosity about the wider environment as well. Hopefully, there were a few nuggets in there for the Formula One nuts. There'll be even more of those in the second chapter of our conversation that will be up on the channel by the end of the summer. Until then, take care, enjoy the over a thousand professional footballers entertaining us at the World Cup. And if you have been, thanks for listening.