Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

At any point in supervision, people can have financial troubles, personal troubles, relationship troubles, they can be changing work. People have messy or dynamic lives.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Hello and welcome back to the Slice of Pie podcast, where the pie is the psychologically informed environment and the mission is to explore it, excavating both the common and unique themes that emerge from conversations with different experts working in different environments, in sport, in business, or in any domain where performance and well-being are hot topics. This episode is a cracking one for those embarking on supervision, looking for a supervisor or even a near fight supervisor looking to improve their own skills in supervising, as well as those receiving mentorship or practising as a mentor. I talk to former QSEP supervisors of mine, Dr. Brian Hemings and Dr. Jonathan Katz, who attempt to capture what they've learned in 20 plus years of supervision and mentorship, along with the 14 plus years of group supervision that they have worked on together. The conversation was so fruitful we had to cut this episode into two parts. So after listening to part one, stay tuned for part two, which should be out on the airwaves soon. Keep tabs on SliSuppie Podcast.com or my LinkedIn feed if you want to keep up with that. This is Dr. Jonathan Katz's second appearance on the podcast. A former fencer turned coach, former counselling psychologist, turned sports psychologist, and a veteran of four Paralympic Games, Team England head coach for the 2010, 2014 and 2018 Commonwealth Fencing Championships, BPS accredited supervisor and business and executive coach as well. We also welcome Dr. Brian Hemmings with a similarly impressive career resume, including 30 plus years of experience in sports psychology consultancy, including a prominent profile in golf psychology as the lead psychologist to England Golf for 17 years. Brian has hosted four national golf psychology conferences, run masterclasses, and has been a keynote speaker at five PGA national conferences across Europe. He also has a wealth of experience in numerous other sports, including professional cricket, Olympic and Commonwealth Games boxing, and motorsport, including Formula One and Le Monde. In 2010 he was awarded a fellowship by the British Association of Sport and Exercise Sciences, which was BACE's, now called KC's, in recognition of esteemed personal achievements, skills, knowledge, and service to Casey's and the Sport and Exercise Science community. Now, in the excitement of getting into the conversation with Brian and John, I accidentally bypassed the opening segment on where to follow them, find their work, and keep up to date with their latest initiatives. So I'm going to signpost these now and then post the links into the podcast description for those looking to find out more. You can find Brian on LinkedIn as well as through his website golfmind.co.uk, which has some great webinars coming up in late 26 and then in early 27. It's also looking like Brian may have some mentoring spots available in the new year, you lucky things. So feel free to contact him in the details left in the episode description. He's also got a fabulous series of applied webinars coming up in partnership with Casey's, I think some of them with uh Tim Holder. So you can find out all about those on the Casey's website, but I've also posted a link in the description for those interested. For Jonathan, you can find him and his consultancy Mind Mood on LinkedIn. So if you just search Dr. Jonathan Katz, there's also a link in the description, or you can drop in uh an email at jcatz at mindmood.org. Jonathan currently has open spaces for mentoring. He's also had a chapter in the very recently released book Myths of Sport and Exercise Psychology, and Jonathan's chapter is titled Myths of CBT, which sounds really intriguing and useful in equal measure, and I'll certainly be picking up a copy. He's also had a chapter entitled Psychologist of People 2 in the book Professional Skills in Sport Psychology Consultancy released last year, as well as a chapter with Judy Keyes entitled Person-Centred Approaches in the book Applied Sport, Exercise and Performance Psychology, Current Approaches to Helping Clients. And finally, in the 2024 second edition of the Psychology of Sport Injury and Rehabilitation, John has a chapter called Counselling Skills in Sport Injury and Rehabilitation, authored with Julie Wormsley. So lots of great info and content there to get stuck into after you listen to the conversation. And speaking of which, let's get into part one of the episode on supervision and mentorship with Dr. Brian Hemings and Dr. Jonathan Katz.

Interview

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Right, this is incredibly exciting for me because I went probably about five or six years seeing both of these people very, very frequently, and then have gone the last five or six years without seeing them as frequently as I would like. So, Jonathan, Brian, absolutely fantastic to have you on the Slice of Pie podcast to talk about supervision and mentorship. We're going to dive straight into it. We're going to talk about definitions, going to try and maybe pull apart or find the overlap between some of the concepts here. Supervision and mentorship. So, what's the definition of both for you guys? What's the the differences between both of them and where are the overlaps? Going to come to you first, Jonathan, and then Brian, you can chip in and fill in any gaps.

SPEAKER_05 6:00

Thanks, Pete, for that. And it's great to it's great to be to be back in contact over this time. Supervision for me is a particular dynamic where somebody is looking to develop or gain skills or knowledge in an area. It may be in the context of a formal training or accreditation process, in which case there may be some external criteria that need to be included or built into the process. There's more of what I would call an informal process where somebody is learning and they want to develop areas of their professional situation because it's of professional interest or it's required in their role. Um but it's not necessarily fixed against any particular criterion so as to meet that particular person's situation. Critically, the supervisor wouldn't necessarily need to have the relevant, in quote, expert knowledge and experience of the area that that is um being focused on. So that's one of the um the attributes. Mentoring is somewhat different, it includes some of what I've spoken about, and one of the key things from mentoring is it's around facilitating. So whilst a supervisor will be providing specific knowledge and information, a mentor is more likely to encourage that knowledge to come from the person being mentored with direction being added as or if needed in the process. Mentoring has some of the attributes of supervision in that it's people in the same domain, but it's its structure and and um implementation is different for those reasons.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Very, very concise and structured answer there. And I think very helpful for people listening into the episode who are interested in these areas because I tend to find, particularly in the corporate world, that sometimes these pieces of language, whether it's supervision, mentorship, etc., can be conflated. So very useful. Brian, anything to add there? Also, welcome to the the podcast. First, first time on.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Thanks again, Peter, for uh similar to John. Thanks for the invite to um participate. John will have heard me say this many times before because we've supervised together for four 14-15 years, and and when we give feedback to candidates, often we find we're picking out and saying the same things. And I always joke, and and John tires of my joking that he always articulates things in a much better or a much more succinct way than I would. But um I I agree, lots of overlap. I think, first of all, as well, is is thinking about what type of supervision. So I think this podcast is more about uh professional supervision rather than uh kind of an academic supervision. But to me, um what what's the purpose of rather than the nitty-gritty of of definitions, it's what's the purpose of them and and and professional supervision is towards an end goal generally of us achieving a certain outcome or a qualification. And as John said, there's various competencies that need to be met. So in supervision roles, I part of my role, although it's the candidate's responsibility to meet the competencies, as a supervisor, you have to keep one eye on what are their activities and how are they how are they demonstrating competencies, collecting evidence for competencies that they will show to their assessors at some point. Whereas mentoring, there's not, there's not, it's I find mentoring is much more fluid, and it's designed about where where is that person right now and what do they want to do in terms of their career development. And similar to John, I'd say there's much the the the common attribute of it and the open open is that there is a person. There is a person at the end of that, and uh psychologists are people too. So there's a person at that, and the interaction and the relationship side of it, but but the outcomes might be very might be similar, but might also be very different.

SPEAKER_05 10:48

There's a tendency in supervision to want to fit the person to the competencies. There's a a risk of that in whatever system that's being done. We may come onto this later, but but for me, well what one of the attributes is this balance of recognizing there's a person who's on a professional endeavor. And whilst they're going to be appraised against the competencies, my job as a supervisor isn't necessarily to say they have done that. My job is to help them get to a position where they can demonstrate that to the relevant people or person who will make the ultimate decision, an assessor or examiner or or some such.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Brian, my lead supervisor, but Jonathan as well, as part of the group training that I did for QSEP. And I know from speaking to the people that have come out of that programme, how transformational that experience was, not just the experience of receiving the great direction and wisdom and content from yourselves, but also the other people in the group as well, that peer-to-peer factor. But what have you guys kind of I don't know whether you've ever sat down and had this conversation together, but what have you learnt? How many years now has the the group supervision been running for?

SPEAKER_05 12:38

About 14.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

14, yeah. So for 14 years, what are the things that you've you've learned about facilitating that group supervision? What what have you learnt from it?

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Well, first of all, and you know my jokey side, I say I've learned not to upset John as well as the first time. Number one learning. No, I I would start, and John's heard this me say this many times before. Uh I I qualified in 1997, and in 1998, John was put in touch with me because we lived fairly local to each other. And John was an established counseling psychologist with lots of experience in his field, and he he was working in fence and he wanted to work move on sport. And it was suggested that I supervise him, and he was asked by what was then Bayes to supervise him for one year, and we formed a relationship, and I very quickly realized that John knew a lot more about certain things than I did. So one thing is supervising together is we are different, but we've got very similar values. We work in very different ways, but there are there's there's a lot of similarity, and one of the similarities, first of all, is about caring about people and candidates. It's a professional role, but we care about the outcomes for people, and we think although it's a group, it's not it's not a transactional relationship where right we've got some supervisees, they're going to pay this amount a month per month, and right, that's that's that's us that's what matters. It's actually we we do, and I think I'm speaking on behalf of John because he's heard me say this before, and I'm and I'm sure he'll agree, is we care about the people and their development. And and hopefully that's why you have reflected in the way you just did, and and and hopefully I I feel others have too. But what have I learned about supervision is every although you're part of a group, and this isn't particularly dramatic, but everyone's unique. Like John just said, everyone approaches, you've got certain competence to meet, everybody's gonna meet them in different ways, everybody comes with different experiences. What we're very good at, I think, is recognizing people's strengths and uh their their existing transferable skills. And we're also sensitive to again the person behind it is that always about context is at any point in supervision, people can have financial troubles, personal troubles, relationship troubles, they can be changing work. People have people have messy or dynamic lives too, and some you know, by no means has everybody come on the group completed. We're aware of that. But what we hope is that people who have who haven't completed it is not been through dissatisfaction with their supervision experience. We we like what we like to do with supervision is to be very clear about what candidates can expect from us in terms of the the the frequency of the meetings, the the the pattern of the meetings, and it's not repetitive. John and I were only talking to a prospective candidate uh earlier this week, and we were describing the program to them, and we were saying that you know this isn't just like well, we just keep repeating the same pattern, because the group is the group is different in its content of the people, of their needs, and so we very carefully planned and and regularly discuss the people that I have direct supervision, coordinated supervision for, and and John has, and and and the mechanisms we've put in place. Some I I guess I'll ask for John's view on this, but some of them were planned, and some of them emerged from the the group thinking those would be good ideas. So it wasn't all this perfectly planned, is what we've we've learned as as we've gone along, and I guess what we learned from supervision, another thing is how much help previous candidates can be with current candidates. And if you foster relationships where people are willing to give back, then that's that's a really rewarding thing to be part of. And just to finish, I just think really incredibly proud of we had a private com a private conversation for you know before the podcast started, and we could name any number of people who've been through the program and absolutely so pleased to see the careers they've developed for themselves and and to be part of that. People in Bower Khan supervision and and and it's and it's can be a it can be a rocky road for many people through that's just the way it is, and and that learning to adapt. Rambled on a bit there is in my usual style.

SPEAKER_05 17:23

I I agree that we share essay of values, and uh that's that's a rock, I think, which which is the anchor around which everything else has has um uh evolved from. I it's very tempting to sanitize for the purpose of a podcast. This is what we do, and it was the whole thing was organized and planned in a nice, yeah, in a nice neat way with a bow tied at the end.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Just like writing up a case study. Yeah. Just like writing up a case study.

SPEAKER_05 17:57

It's it's it isn't. Um it never has been. It's it's it's been an ongoing endeavor that's evolved as we became more familiar with the group, we became more familiar with QSEP and understanding the demands of QCP. But but more but more importantly, we we stuck true to the principles that we're helping people. Uh, we aren't any better than those folks in the room. We just happen to be in a different stage of our careers in the room. So we have a bit more knowledge than they do at this moment in time. Fast forward a few years, and those folks may well be supervising others, and then because they've accrued that experience. So we started from I I hope from a humble position of we can offer a way to progress, not the way to progress, but a way to progress, and and we developed it through each cohort, and as the cohorts changed over time, our backtrack, we started with a a group, everybody was at the same point throughout.

SPEAKER_04 19:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 19:18

Fairly quickly, some moved on, some stayed, new people came, so there were people at different stages. So we began to recognize this this is a live environment where there are degrees of relative experience within the group itself, outside of Brian and myself, and we we look to play to those strengths, and we still do. And Brian spoke about the graduates of that group are willing to be supportive of those who've come after because most of them have benefited from those that were for their predecessors, and and and that's something which like I would love to be able to say we planned it, it happened. It happened as a consequence of how we work with people. So, one of the things from for me that that I've I've learned out of the process is that the dynamics of the group is a place within which learning occurs. And I think what's important to add is whilst we've been focusing on the group component, there is an individual component where there's the individual supervision, and Brian alluded to having a lead supervisor, which is largely came about because QCEF requires such, requires it to be a coordinating supervisor. And importantly, there's a whole set of relationships that Brian and I are mostly aware of, but perhaps not entirely aware of, which are the ongoing relationships between the group candidates themselves and the myriad of conversations and discussions that those folks have in parallel to the formal structure of the groups and individual supervision. So it's become quite dynamic in that way, and the shape of it is largely determined by the people in the room at that time and the respective initiative of those people. And that has varied over time.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

First of all, I am not surprised that your opening gambit there was to say that you weren't going to sanitize for the purpose of the podcast 14 years of excellent supervision where everyone comes out incredibly happy, the other side to acknowledge that things aren't perfect, that they have to be worked on and evolved over time, and that speaks to your your humility, uh JK. The other thing that I I noted down from both of your reflections, I just put the word caring in this. Capitals in the middle of my page, and I I have to say that had an effect on myself. I think probably coming into sports psychology after a gap in education for about 10 years, my initial excitement about the area was mainly wow, sport. Can I be close to these elite athletes and coaches pushing themselves to the best of their abilities, etc.? How brilliant would that be? And I think I found very, very quickly through the process with you both, actually, whilst that's a very inspiring environment to be around, and isn't it great to work tangentially to the things that you're personally passionate about? But actually, the the center of my enthusiasm quickly became actually just helping people, and it didn't really matter whether that athlete that was coming through my website was playing in the Six Nations or just trying to improve their park run time, the vitality that the the process was giving me was getting close to people and being part of people's journeys. And so having that that motivation, that desire to want to help people at the the core of it, I personally feel is very important and certainly something that was nourished, encouraged, supported by yourselves. The other thing that I noted down around supervision and mentorship, and maybe this is a good way to slingshot into mentorship, is how supervision, particularly, you know, we we talked about QSEP, but if you talk of if anyone's listening to this podcast that's coming from other professional areas, quite often supervision is, like you say, a part and parcel of a formalized route or qualification or diploma or whatever that might be. Whereas there seems to be a bit of an association with mentorship, mentorship is that it's something you kind of do off your own back, that you've acknowledged that there might be some holes or weaknesses in your career development or somewhere that you want to improve and that you go and find someone. JK, we'll we'll start with you there. You had your had your hand up.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

First of all, th thanks, Pete, for for for those comments and and and reflections of both of us and of your own experience. Mentoring is although we described it as sort of similar but different, it's the differences that are important. And I'd I'd like to briefly comment around mentoring and coaching. I think there's a closer, there's a closer link in in that regard. Some organizations I've worked in.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Sorry, just to clarify, you're talking about coaching in a professional capacity, not necessarily a sport capacity. Executive coaching, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:25

I've worked in organizations where they have folks who are available to provide that kind of support, where there's recognition that the roles for people in the organizations are quite demanding, and to have someone who's kind of been there and done it, but outside of the system to be a resource, a place where they can share concerns that aren't to their line managers. So there's there's no consequence in terms of discipline which may come out, discipline reaction which may come out, or judgment which may come out of working with somebody inside an organization. So I've I've and I've certainly had that kind of role with organizations, and for those people, it's been a way of validating is what they're doing, what they think they're doing. A self-reality check. It's not imposed on them by someone, it's it's it's that so for one person, for example, wanted to inquire, explore the risk of their own complacency, having been working for a number of years and become very familiar with the role that they were doing. Were they still meeting their own personal expectations and standards with with within that? So it came from from them. I think there's there's also a part of mentoring where in the sports site we talk about a neophyte practitioner, where there are folks who have got the training, they've got all that experience, they've done a few years post-qualification work, and they want to refine their practice in a bespoke way to where they are, rather than to tick the computer copters in boxes along along the way. Yeah, they've done that. The metaphor is you've passed your driving test, now you learn to drive.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:37

It's a bit like that.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

I use that a lot.

SPEAKER_05 27:39

I've had inquiries where people have gone, I've done that formal training, I'm now ready for more. I'm ready to to check things out. And and the final sort of area for for for mentoring is it's a different dynamic. The expectation for me at least, the with mentor mentors, the mentoring and the coaching is the the mentee or the coache is the one in the driving seat. They're more leading, and the expectation is that they find with support, being facilitated with facilitation, direction, and so on, they find their way of how to navigate their professional situation. And also for some people, it may be how to balance their professional situation with their personal situation, and that certainly ties with the values Brian and I spoke about, which we're talking about people first in a professional context. And certainly I've worked with people where they've had significant changes in their personal lives, and therefore the role of their work situation changed because their values changed as a result of their personal circumstances. So the work was the work-life balance and the blend of that.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:01

So those will be some of my initial headline comments, thoughts, impressions.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

It's interesting because what you're talking about there, professional versus personal situations and how things can change, opening up the need to talk to someone or work through the challenges of that dynamic with someone is is interesting. Sometimes when lots of things change all at the same time, there's an additional need to speak to someone because maybe you need help just seeing the wood from the trees. Like which of which one of these changes is the why was there a combination of them? The other thing I noted down there, I feel like I tend to speak about the Jihari window on every podcast. So maybe the people listening to this might find it boring, but just the the thought that someone might come to into a mentorship environment because they know they don't know something, like I know I'm deficient in an area and I want to work on it, but also how maybe they've they've been in a career for a number of years, they feel like they're getting a bit stale, and actually maybe they're looking for the the things they don't know they don't know about, and that could be just as valuable as well. So I thought that was interesting. Anything to to add there, Brian, on mentoring and coaching?

SPEAKER_00 30:15

John's done more of the exact coaching than I have, but uh I've done bits, but I'll I'd focus on the mentoring. Um I I I did have a count up before the uh the podcast mentally about how I think I've uh mentored about 25 people, 95% of them are sports psychologists, and of those 95%, only one other one person sought no, sorry, that's one other person sought mentoring to alongside the supervision they were having. So again, I think similar to supervision, people come people come, and what I'm first trying to do is just to understand the context is as you're saying, is there's a whole myriad of reasons is what are you seeking from mentorship at this point in time? Where are you? What's the context for you? So, what I asked people to do is not like a write an essay, but just at the start of supervision, uh sorry, at the mentoring, just give me a broad outline of of of what you're seeking to gain from the relationship, and that can act as a guide. Experience tells me when we look back on at that over a period of time, often they're completely different. Yeah, it's a completely different agenda.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

The needs analysis changes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

And the and the it's fluid, and that's the advantage of venturing in the sense you can go with what is you know unforeseen events, you've not got to keep an eye on competencies. It's you can you can you can help that person with that uh uh situation or work they have to do or how they want to develop, and it and it can and it can change. So that's different. People come, what do they come for? They they they've got I think you referred to it, there's some there's some need, it's it's not governed by I have to be supervised. And I know in some organizations you could they provide mentees. I've not been in that position. I've had the situation where people have have been self-motivated to engage. Typically, they're people early post-qualification, but not exclusively. And what are they looking for? They're looking for support, direction, sometimes checking, want to be challenged, where they see gaps. Often they see gaps is my supervision didn't really cover this. And where they they might have been classed as having competencies and and and and been but actually beneath that, there's still a feeling that they lack competence in that area. And of course, and I think the other thing people come to mentoring is John mentioned it before, and what uh well Angela, I forgot about that, about saying that the way we treat supervise uh supervisees is that they're the same as us, we've just got more experience. We're no different to them. And and um That's a nice uh paraphrase. I think in in the benefit the the benefits for for for mentorship is I've been doing this 35 years, is I have access to a range of industry contacts in different sports, different psychologists, different fields which where I can help that person, I can help make introductions. Okay, you can do that in supervision as well, but I think it happens more often in mentorship. So it might be, well, yeah, it's okay. It sounds a bit you want to work on this this subject. Actually, I might not even be the best person for that, but I know somebody who is, and because of the strength of my relationship with other people, and we could argue at the end of all of this, and I'm sure John might reach the same thing, it's underpinned by relationships of reciprocation and caring and and trying to help people, and and that's what I try and do. It's it it's it's listening carefully to people, understanding their context, their need at their particular time, and a mixture of support, challenge, and and I really mean this for most of the mentoring. I find I'm affirming people. That sounds like a pretty good idea to me. You're not guaranteed it to work, just like anybody else, and and reminding them that uh all of my career hasn't been everything's worked and everything's been perfect and everything's struck gold, far from it. But most of the time is encouraging people to have a go and have a try. I find a lot of people are they they don't want to, in my terms, put themselves out there for fear of what do people think about them. And I try and say, look, just be proud of your work. Whoever people want to engage with you or use your services, whatever, that's still their choice, but they've got to know about you. You've got as as much right as anybody else, rather than seeing as if I do something, it doesn't work, it's a terrible failure, and it would be really embarrassing. No, it wouldn't be, it'd just be that didn't particularly work. So I think a lot of the time it's affirming people that they have every right, just like anybody else, to have a go at things. And I think sometimes for me, mentoring is and you see this in supervision tour, is really coming alongside someone and saying, Yeah, have a go, have a go, and you've got that's fine. And if it doesn't work, mean you will talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 35:24

It was just taken, Brian, but what would you say about affirming people? One of the themes of our work has been to say, just starting point is folks are already qualified, they already experienced people academically. If we're talking now about the group, yeah, they already come with a a master's degree. So they they are they they they know they know stuff, may not have depth of experience, but they have depth of knowledge. And I'm gonna say this oftentimes I see the people I work with, the younger, the newer uh the new people coming up, been mentoring, coaching, saying, You are more au fay with the current literature than I am.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Interesting.

SPEAKER_05 36:06

I'm gonna I'm going to rely on way on on you to help me on this because you've had need to do that. I I I haven't in the same way. So I I recognize that as much as there may be stuff I know that they don't, there's also stuff that they know that I don't. And this idea of affirming folks is is really important. Um, I I I think it's also important that we've spoken about care. And one of the necessary experiences on the receiving end of supervision, mentoring, coaching, etc., is being on the receiving end of challenge. And by challenge, I'm referring to questioning rather than criticizing. I can't emphasize that highly enough. On the receiving end of challenge, sometimes people can feel that their insecurities are being exposed, they can feel more vulnerable. So part of why I think I and we emphasize this thing of caring at people so much is we recognize that through the process it is going to feel very uncomfortable at times. They will feel out of their depth at times, they will feel that intellectually they get it, but emotionally they don't feel confident about it at times. Supporting them through that process where it's okay to feel not okay. And it's okay to say that. And I'm well aware I've used the word okay multiple times to illustrate it.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:52

That that's the quality of the of the of the relationship. And in preparation for our conversation today, the thought occurred to me what have I learned, or what have I learned, or what have we learned over time? And for me, one of the key things, and this was prompted by one of the comments Brian made about the relationship, is to uh intentionally create a relationship that is effective and efficient. I use the term safe, secure, and trusting, if if you like. And to allow the relationship to do the heavy lifting. And by that I mean if there's if the relationship feels safe and secure, people feel comfortable, feel comfortable enough with being uncomfortable, which will allow them to grow and develop. It doesn't guarantee that will happen, but it creates the condition for that to happen. So therefore, taking time to be with people rather than to do things to people feels super important to me.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Some great stuff there, guys. I mean, that last bit I couldn't help but like my parenting identity was just overflowing there with recognition of you know, trying to create a safe environment and a feeling of of safety for your kids to go out and try things in in the world. So I think there's some interesting kind of you know parallels and crossovers there, quality of the relationship. That piece around telling people that are way junior than you that actually there are some strengths that you don't have, I think is so important. It reminds me of a very early ad agency internship I did in I think 2006 or something like that at Saarchi and Sarchi. And the head of planning said for the next two weeks, you're gonna know more about the mobile phone operator market than I do because I'm working across 10 accounts. Now I have I've got the experience to be able to pick through some of the information that you bring me and maybe see things that that you don't, but you will know more about each of the brands, what they're doing, how they're different to the one that we're working on. And have to say, it's like a 19-year-old guy, that was brilliant to be told that you know I've I've got a superpower here, and I'm working with someone else who also has a superpower, so that really connected as well. And then finally, the piece around having a mentor outside of the system I think is really important. I worked for a company called Wasserman, I ran the strategy and insights team across Europe there for about four years, and I had seven direct reports, eight direct reports, and I found there were a number of challenges of working for a company that was so big, tens of thousands of people across the different offices that they had in America and Europe and the Middle East, Australia. But one of the benefits was you could find people across this network that could be mentors for people in your team. So I would say to the team, if you like, I can find you a mentor. So it wasn't something that they had to do. Everyone did it because there was there were ambitious people that wanted to develop themselves, and so they would draw up a list of people that they were interested in learning more from from across the business, and then I'd approach them on their behalf and say this is the relationship that I want to strike up. But I was always very clear with them that that was a very safe space for them to have conversations, and actually, if you want to spend 50% of the time in that conversation complaining about me as your manager, I would encourage you to do that, and that's safe. That's never going to come back to me. And so I can see why people want to reach outside of the network sometimes for that fear of kind of performance repercussions. But from my own perspective, I still think as a manager, you can still create that safety within the organized organization. And again, that goes back to the relationship you were talking about because if you've got a strong relationship when you say there won't be any repercussions of that, that's completely safe, and people believe that you're saying that, then hopefully you're creating that that sense of safety.

SPEAKER_05 42:16

Uh you said there were many repercussions. I'd like to gently challenge that. There are repercussions of acceptance and tolerance.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_05 42:25

There may not be feared repercussions, but the absence of those doesn't mean nothing. The absence of those means there's acceptance and tolerance alongside that for me.

Reflection

SPEAKER_02 42:35

There we have it, a belter of a first part with Dr. Brian Hemmings and Dr. Jonathan Katz on the themes of mentorship and supervision. Stay tuned for part two of the conversation, which hopefully will go live later in the year or in early 27th. But in the meantime, what can we take from part one? From the messiness of people's lives to the dynamics of group learning, from professional confidence to the importance of challenge, and the delicate balance between making people feel supported while also making them feel a little uncomfortable. It was a conversation that offered plenty of food for thought, particularly for those of us working in sport and performance psychology, but also anyone navigating the early stages of a professional career, learning their craft, or just figuring out how to get better at what you do. There are a couple of things that stood out. Firstly, seeing the person in front of you. One of the things I liked about Brian's reflections on supervision was his appreciation that it just happens in the context of people's wider, often quite messy lives. Could be financial pressures, relationship difficulties, health challenges. These things don't just conveniently disappear when someone walks into a supervision session. And people bring all of that with them, and that's where Brian and John kind of meet them. John also offered a lovely reminder of humility here with the observation that we're not any better than the folks. In the room that we're supervising, we just happen to be at a different stage of our career. That's such a lovely sense of experience and expertise something, but that makes us fundamentally different from the people that we're working with, or censoring, or supervising. There's something important about retaining that perspective, particularly when we're in positions where others are looking for guidance. Secondly, learning doesn't stop when the qualification does. So there's a tendency, perhaps, sometimes, particularly professional training pathways to be competence for something you kind of take off, you acquire, you demonstrate, you get through where you complete the training, and then you've got the qualification, you demonstrate the competency, and you just get cracking that's jobs on that. Well, maybe, but also maybe not, but it's it's notion here that perhaps many of us can relate to where we might have technically got a competence in fact, but you still maybe lack confidence in a particular area of practice, and that's where supervision and ship can be really valuable. Um it's one I hope for me personally because I've been seeking supervision here around the ending of relationships. I think it's a really interesting area because once you might feel confident in building relationships or conducting sessions, delivering interventions, etc. Bringing a piece of work to a code to present its own challenges. Have you done enough? Has the quantity got what they needed for the work? Are they thinking about the changes they've made in the new habits that maybe to the full happens if they want to make things going forward? Have you helped them think about what they might do if they encounter? And what happens after the fall? Are they about to drop you an email or share not say and where are the boundaries there? And these are all things that might not necessarily feel like the most difficult or technically demanding parts of the job, but they're I think they're important nonetheless, and sometimes it's precisely these types of things we're having someone to talk to, someone experienced to talk to, to talk those things through and question your thinking their expertise. I can go, I can make a real discussion around the dynamics of group supervision in terms of a point of phrase that the dynamics of group is a place where learning occurs, and it's not just about the supervisor of artists, knowledge of expertise, and people value in hearing how others approach challenges, recognising shared experiences, and learning from different perspectives that emerging when people bring their own experiences to the table. And then finally the importance of challenge within a safe space. So one of the interesting aspects of the conversation was around being on the perceiving end of challenge, and specifically this distinction between questioning someone and questioning them. So that probability can can emerge. So therefore it's how a challenge is delivered, it's a balance to be truck, it's been caring forward, supporting someone once all so being willing to push them. Not challenge for the sake of challenge, but challenge that comes from a genuine desire to help someone develop. I think this is where the relational foundations of supervision and mentorship that finding jobs trust that they in this conversation become really important. If someone feels challenged for a time to expose, they're probably going to become defensive or retreating to themselves. But if they feel like the person who's challenging them as their best interest are, and they're operating within a relationship or trust, they're much more likely to lean into those uncomfortable moments on the learning in there, yeah, something for that. Or tromper it so muchly, it's about creating relationships as they're perhaps that's a really good three-word summary of what effective supervision and mentorship should inspire today. So then we have a conversation that perhaps uh as a useful reminder that professional development isn't simply about accumulating more knowledge, taking up competencies, or getting another qualification under that. It's also about remaining curious, being willing to acknowledge where you still have room to go and surrounding yourself with the people who can support that and also help you see things maybe a little differently along the way. Remembering that wherever we are in our careers, we're all still learning, aren't we? So there we have it, folks. Stay tuned for the next slice of pie, which will hopefully be hitting the airwave soon. And if you have been, thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

Yeah, no, uh a couple of points I was gonna make is about recognising strengths. I find you often, and and this isn't just mentoring, it can be in supervision too, and I'll give you an example of supervision, is is you build a relationship, you know, inevitably people are talking about career development and where they could improve things like that. Uh it's often you're recognizing strengths that they can't even see themselves. The risk of being talking about you, Peter, but we're not gonna have to want to. I really I really clearly remember you talking about your career. Immediately saying this whole range of transferable skills and experiences that were gonna really put you in good stead for sports psychology. And if I remember rightly, you published a case study about it in the end about how you transferred that's commonplace that people just think it's well that's that's that, that's a completely different thing, and actually, you you the the sort of the level of interpersonal skills you already possessed. I could see that you're gonna be fantastic at building relationships from the start. Yes, you had some technical knowledge and experiences to gain, but there was a platform there already, and I find that in mentoring too, it's sometimes making people you can see things if you listen carefully and you really understand the context, you can really see things they can't even see. Um back to what you were saying about what I was saying about needs and why do people come, and you gave an example of an organization providing mental needs. A lot of the time in sports technology, people are working in isolation once they finish supervision, whether it be individual group or a mixture, they often find themselves without a peer group small contact, and they're like they express a need for I feel isolated, I haven't got really anybody I can ask about these things. I'm expecting to know it myself. And sometimes I don't know. And that's just another context, isn't it? But that's that's quite commonplace that people say, Well, you know, Vince, you know, I'm I'm finished three years ago now, but but there's lots I don't know, and I and I don't know now whether I'm doing the best I can with this.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

There's a little threat I want to put on that because I also wrote down the affirmation piece, and when you were talking about you just got up on your soapbox for a little bit there, didn't you, Brian? You were saying, Yeah, give it a go have it a go, give it a try. I mean, I was just thinking about my to-do list, and I was getting pumped up to get off the Zoom meeting later and start attacking it and give give some of the things I want to do today a try. But there's also something, maybe this is just something for my own um. Experience and perspective about others affirming you or emphasizing or illuminating or reflecting your strengths? Is is there a an art to that? Is there a a skill to that? I'm just thinking about there's probably a balance where you can kind of overdo that, right? If you're just constantly kind of affirming people, does that do those each individual affirmations kind of lose their power? Or is it because of the position that you're in as a mentor that actually is more meaningful for the people that are recipients of it versus their family and friends going, you're brilliant, you know, you've done this before. It doesn't, it doesn't hit as much, does it, when your your mum's saying it for the you know the millionth time in your life, like you're brilliant, well done, etc. You've got this, versus you know, someone in a professional relationship um situation using it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

Yeah. I think. Sorry, I interrupted. No, I think you're right. I think it's it's who saying it, and it's not in the sense of arrogance, it's me saying it, but because of my role and experience, it would be different from oh, I've had these, and they people say that. I've I've had the conversation with my wife or husband or whoever it is, but they don't really understand, they don't understand the nuances of what that means professionally or or or how to manage that experience. So I'm not saying of any sense of arrogance, and I'm not saying I've experienced everything, but there is some sense of sharing and I of and it isn't just a constant rah-rah rah, you can do this, it's much more subtle than that. If they're not ready to do it, I wouldn't be saying that. I would be asking, well, how can you prepare yourself to do that? Have you thought about this? That sounds really good, but actually, um, I'm not so sure that would work in the way you want. And then they might say, Oh, say, tell me more about that. And then they might actually, okay, well, I misunderstood. Actually, no, it sounds like that's good to go. Or I think what I'm trying to use is my relevant experience and knowledge to give themselves some best in sometimes best guess, but we're hypothesizing together and collaborating. Um but but sometimes it is, you know, you know, you just have a go. And I think sometimes what I was gonna say is where there's a kind of a fear element of what might people or some consequence, emotional consequence that they that they've that they're somewhat concerned about, frightened about, fearful of, it's kind of them sensing that already that you've got their back, and actually, if that happens, it's okay. We'll we'll talk about that. And John, you said about this is okay. And and and I think and and you know, it's you know, and John, I'm sure John will say this isn't most of my work mirrors what I do when I'm working with athletes. It's the same thing, it's it's just the core of the relationship, is what I'm trying to develop, the way I talk to them, is the same, um, express the same care. They've just got different outcomes that they want. That's to me, that's the core that's the core. You you you you you you you meet and you you meet and you listen and and and you you change the you know, maybe sometimes it's changing the pitch and tone of your voice in terms of some people m might need a more a more gentle sense of you you know go and have a do with this, others you need to maybe be a bit more challenging and and I think what you over years of experience what you're trying to do is is get the sense of what will help that person. Jonathan, you had your hand up there.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:01

I I I did. I I agree with with with Air Brian, and I was I was I first put my hand up around this this just saying platitudes, what I would call platitudes for the sake of it. Um just saying you're great at this. I I I'm aware there are different cultures where that's more familiar or more typical. Um for me, I I I think that in the question you you you you you asked, Peter, is there an art to that? And I I was I was reflecting on that and listening carefully to Brian in using our professional judgment, understanding the person, the context, kind of anticipating where we could see them be in a year's time, in two years' time, because we've been there, they haven't yet been there. So we can extrapolate a little bit based on reading the person and how if if this were evolved, how it could evolve, what it could evolve into. I I think that's important. I I think also we spoke we spoke about the the importance of the relationship, and you rightly said, Pete, Brian also said this it often depends on who gives the information and how valuable the per the recipient feels, or how valid the recipient feels that information is. Um so from for me, I often will talk about this is my experience of you. I'm not saying this is how you are, this is my experience of how I understand you, and based on that, this is what I value in you, whether or not you agree with, like it, understand it, etc. That's your opportunity to to explore. So that that for me is one of the art forms. I I think also there is a a timing, a timing element. And some interventions have a protocol, you do this, you do this, you do this in a particular way. Yeah, and um I I I find that for a brief anecdote. Many years ago, I historically I I worked in clinical settings, and when cognitive therapy, best cognitive therapy was relatively new, it had a number of conditions of these were contraindications. If a client had any of these, then this wasn't for them. I was in a workshop and there was this long list of contraindications, and every single person on the units I was working in had at least one or more of those indications. And my the question was there was therefore I can't do it, I can't do this. Or how can I shape it to be relevant for this in a careful, cautious way? And and that that's that's something I learned to articulate only some years later, in the way I've done now. At the time, it just seemed to me to be, well, why not? I didn't know a bunch of stuff I didn't know about, so in the naivety, I made I took I took that step to taking the point that Brian's made. Subsequently, I recognized that by making these adaptations and sharing strength with people, there's a timing. And I've I've been asked often when is the right time, and I frankly don't know when the right time is. I seek to avoid the wrong time because if somebody is is clearly not ready to hear information, trying to make it fit might have a consequence where they don't ever revisit that moment ever again. So I avoid, I try very hard to avoid the wrong moments, and therefore I'm comfortable with the others. And the final piece on that meander is I'm quite comfortable to backtrack and say to somebody, I will I will withdraw that, I will withdraw the conversation, but I recognize it's well intended but not helpful right now. So I will hear them and and I and I will adapt accordingly. Not rather than the protocol says I should do this, it's yes, I know what the protocol says, but that doesn't fit with this person right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:27

Yeah, interesting how within the the wider universe of mentorship, there are specific conversations you could probably do an entire podcast about. In in this case, how to deliver an affirmation and the the the art of doing that, the what you've learned over your career, whether it's timing, whether it's the authenticity of how you do it, whether it's the intonation or the inflection that you use with that particular person that you think that that's what they need from your experience of delivering this to hundreds of others. Um, it coming from a place of evidence, not just an empty platitude, just knowing and judging the relationship that you've built and how you can then deliver it. So fascinating stuff. And yeah, we'll have to do some more of these down the line because there's lots of other little slingshotty conversations that'd be lovely to have, but I'm aware that we've only got a few minutes left. I'm just gonna talk off edit now, uh, Brian and JK, so we've got six minutes left. I know, Jonathan, we've talked about the psychologically informed in environment before. I wonder whether we just get to the last question now, which is the um the one book podcast, movie, or TV show that has impacted you the most personally professionally. Are you happy to finish with that?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:51

I am you in your notes, you spoke about promotions. I don't know whether you wanted to do any of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:57

Uh yes, yeah, should we do that as well?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:03

I'm happy I'm happy to go to the key influence and the promotions, and if Brian is okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:12

Well, let me do let me tear it up first.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:15

Great stuff. So we're going to move now into the the final question that I've been asking people recently on the podcast. Like a magpie, I'm collecting little artifacts, books, podcasts, TV shows, movies that have influenced the guests that come onto the show. So I'll go to you first, Brian. Is there a book, podcast, movie, or TV show that has impacted you the most, either personally or professionally?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:47

That's a really that is honestly a really tough question. Um I I I I would like to say there is, um but hand on heart, I can't honestly say there's one that stands out.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

John Jonathan, have you have you have you got one?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:06

Have you got one and then we're not can I just I'll just say Peter, rather than a book, I think it's actually I feel I've been more struck by people I've met and and I could add range of things, but but different people, different things at different points in my career that just have commanded my attention and through who they are and what they've done has uh have really have really struck me. But if I was to say one author in the sports psychology community, it would be genre visit legend and yourself, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:52

For for me it's it's a it's a dynamic between a particular person and a book. The book is is related to the person. This is when I was at uh doing my undergraduate degree, that there was a particular lecturer who when I was with them, whether it's two minutes in a corridor, whatever it is, for that time I they were fully present with me in my space. Whatever else they had happening in their life was kept, was insulated from that moment. Concurrent with that was it was a textbook called Personality and Personal Growth. Um it's the the textbook is from I think it's from 1975, the edition I first received by an authors with the names Faderman and Frage, believe it or not. What was significant about the textbook is they were the key theorists, but in every chapter the theorist was placed in their chronological time, their social time, and their family context. So they weren't these professional, unobtainable people, they were human beings who who through experience came up with ideas, and and the two is being present and remembering the context. And there have been multiple examples since then, as Brian says, it's very hard to pick one, but uh this is the genesis of many others who have reinforced that set of qualities for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:50

It they're they are special people, the ones that you meet in in the world that when you are speaking and they are listening, you feel like the most important person on the planet, and that that that is uh certainly an experience that stays with you, doesn't it? Um thank you for sharing that. Finally, just before we go, is there is there anything else that uh normally we do that at the start, but um I forgot this time, so that's my learning for the next episode. Um but before we go, are there any anything that uh let me say that again? Before we go, is there anything that you'd like to signpost for the listeners' websites? Anything you're working on recently, any projects, Brian?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:37

Um I remember saying this before. I don't know if people remember the the shameless.

unknown 1:21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:45

So some some shameless publication. Yeah. Um in uh late this year in early 2027, I've arranged um uh another webinar series with Casey's so people could find the details on the Casey's website. Uh and also I'm running a series of webinars uh on golf, golf psychology. I've worked in the sport for 30 odd years. Uh people could go to my website golfmind.co.uk, and you'll find all the details and costs and content and so on. That's uh late 26, early 27. And just finally, whilst we're talking about mentorships, I do have I I offer six and twelve month mentorships. Some people extend, but I anticipate on the first of January, I don't know when this is going out, Pete, but on the 1st of January, I'll probably have capacity to take on three people if anyone's interested.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:45

What an opportunity for anyone listening. And I'll what I'll do is just because the uh the nature of long-form podcasts like this, there are not as many people listening by this point as there are right at the start. So I'll make sure I'll surface that in the intro and also post those links in the show notes as well. And and John, anything anything to signpost for the listeners?

SPEAKER_05 1:23:09

I I have a couple things. One linking in from what Brian has just said, um I'm I'm open, I'm open for mentoring for folks. They can find me through through the LinkedIn information which will which will be attached. There are four book chapters, and they all relate to the themes of of the of the uh talk today. The most important or pressing one is a book that is edited by Amy Whitehead and Jen Jennifer Co. Myths of Sports Psychology. It's its publication is imminent, right? And there's a chapter in that they they they kindly asked me to write on, which is um myths of CBT.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:59

Oh, great.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:01

Um there's a a book I a chapter I've written in a book edited by Brian, Tim Holder, and Stacey Winter. That's Professional Skills in Sports Ecology Consulting. The chapter is Psychologist of People Two, which feels very apt given the conversation we've had for today.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:25

Great chapter that is, John.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:27

There's a chapter in a book edited by David Todd and Martin Eubank, Applied Sport and X Sport Exercise and Performance Psychology, Current Approaches to Helping People. And the chapter is with a colleague of mine, Julie Keyes, called Person Centered Approaches, which talks about listening and being present and so on. So there's a there's a link there, and and the final the final is with a colleague Brian also knows um Mona Arvin and Barrow and Damien Clement. They've they've had a second edition of their book, The Psychology of Sports Injury and Rehabilitation. And there's a and that was 2024, that that that text, there's a book, Counseling Skills in Sports Injury and Rehabilitation, and that's with a colleague of mine, Julie Wormsley.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:20

Great.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:21

So so so those are sort of themes, sort of resources linking some of the themes that have emerged in our in the website in the podcast this morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:33

Absolutely. So those those listening can go even deeper. Um fantastic array of books there. Certainly, uh David Todd, I think pretty much anything that he he's done. I hoovered up when I was doing my own qualifications, some great applied lens uh stuff there. So I'll I'll be checking out that one, I think. So I'll post all the links for people to to find those in the show notes. And look, thank you so much, uh, both of you. We've just about kind of kept a kind of time slash gone over a little bit, so might have to chop this one up and and put it out in in two parts. Uh, but yeah, though these these two two episodes would be out before certainly before the end of the year. And thank you so much for for coming on and sharing your your expertise, your wisdom, things that you've learned in within mentorship and supervision with those listening to the podcast. It's very much appreciated.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:25

Thanks, Pete. Thanks, Brian. Thank you, John. Pete, you did superb pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:33

Do you know what? That affirmation, I'm going, I believe it. I'm I'm keeping it.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:37

Yeah. You you are the you are you I can see you're the new part of the.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:41

That's a platitude, but uh, I'll I'll take it.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:45

No, seriously. Uh honestly, I say this if if if postgraduate students uh do an interview afterwards, if they've done well, I say, look, that's not easy. That's not easy to be the interviewer. I've often, when I've done podcasts, is the podcasts come out well when the interviewer does a good job.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:06

Oh, thank you. Much appreciated. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:10

That wasn't a platform.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:12

What I would also add is it's always a challenge to be the interviewer of people who were your supervisors.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:21

Yeah, true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:24

He don't give a shit about money.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:26

Not for me. Not for me.