SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hi there! Welcome to Slice of Pie, the podcast interested in psychologically informed environments. It could be professional football, elite sports academies, large multinational companies, or anywhere else, performance and well-being are central concerns. And my guest this week has worked across all of the environments just mentioned. Paul McVeigh left his hometown of Belfast at the age of 16 to sign for Tottenham Hotspur, where he was immediately thrown into a training session with Jurgen Klinsman, who had just been signed after the 1994 World Cup. He made his first start for Spurs up front with Teddy Geringham, scoring on his home debut in 1997, and went on to represent Tottenham as well as Norwich City, Burnley, Luton Town, and Northern Ireland as a player. Since then, he has worked in the media for the BBC, Sky Sports, Be In Sports and Talksport, amongst many others. He's authored a book, The Stupid Footballer is Dead, got his Masters in Sport and Exercise Psychology from Staffordshire University, and has been a performance psychology coach at a Premier League Football Academy. Now he spends his time as a global keynote speaker, delivering keynotes and corporate training for the likes of Barclay, PwC, Microsoft, and a truckload of other blue chip companies. At the time of recording, he has done so in 16 countries across three continents. I met Paul during our master's in sports psychology five years ago, and he's genuinely one of the most positive, optimistic, and energy-giving people you could meet. It's clear from our conversation how values-driven he is, as well as his passion for the high-performing mindset across environments. We recorded this earlier in the year before COVID had accelerated as a global concern, points to the lack of references to it, and it's actually been quite refreshing to listen through and edit a conversation created in the optimistic world of pre-lockdown. I hope those listening take as much from it as I did. As always, we'll have a first and second half, so we'll break for a half-time breather and discussion of some of the key points before jumping back into the interview with Paul before a full-time final reflection. So, without further ado, let's get into it with Paul McVeigh. Hey Paul, how are ya?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Embarrassingly well, Pete, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

You're embarrassingly well. I am, yes, always. I love that. In my day-to-day work, the the standard response is not too bad. I think that's a British thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah. And what is the inference behind that when someone says they're not too bad?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Well, I don't know. I suppose if someone means it literally, then that's that's quite worrying, isn't it? But uh I wonder whether it's just become a an automatic response.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

So one of the um one of the ways that we adopt beliefs about ourselves and the people and situations in the world around us is through repetition. So if on a consistent basis over months and years and years, if someone asks you, how's it going, and you say, not too bad, I'm okay, I'm all right, all that, consistently telling yourself that, probably that's maybe what you're gonna start thinking and believing about yourself. And and as we know, how the belief picks up subconscious ideas about ourselves. And if if you keep saying that, then that's probably what you're gonna believe about yourself. And funnily enough, whenever someone asks me how I'm doing, I say embarrassingly well. It has so many facets to it because first of all, people laugh. So the start of a conversation, I'm laughing with you, so straight away there's rapport. Second, secondly, they're they're really interested. Like, well, what do you mean you're embarrassing? Why are you embarrassing it? Why why what's so good? Well, and then you're obviously can share a few things about what you're doing and how you're doing stuff. And the third thing, as I just said there about the reputation, is that if I continuously tell myself that I'm embarrassingly well, how does that make me feel on a regular basis? So actually it's multifaceted, funny, humorous, but also self-serving for me and reinforcing that I have a lot of good things going on in my life.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Great. I love it. I mean, it's taken 23 seconds before I've I've already learnt something very valuable from this chat. Um so so go on then, let's let's go with this. So, why are you embarrassingly well at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Do you want a list or do you want a narrative?

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Or just give give me something, give me a chunk, an example.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Um I'm a 42-year-old guy. I'm in 100% physical health. I live in Belfast, just saw my mum for dinner tonight and haven't lived in England for 25 years, which I couldn't do that for 25 years. And so the fact that I could drive five minutes around a corner to pick my mum up to have some dinner, to bring her back home again, to come and speak to you on this amazing piece of technology to talk about the life that I've had, the experience we had doing our masters together, and the fact that I'm having phone calls today with Korea, Dubai, America about the places and organizations we're gonna be speaking with around the world this year. Sort of makes me feel embarrassingly well that sometimes I don't really like telling people about it because sometimes you feel like you're getting a big head and other in this part of the world. That's not something we like doing, especially in Belfast and Ireland. You know, you don't want anybody getting above their station or you know, too big for their boots, all these phrases that we use in society. Probably if we're in America, then maybe we might you know celebrate the successes we have a little bit more. So not saying one's right more than the other, but I suppose I just like having a healthy perspective of how grateful and blessed and fortunate I am to have the life I have.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Oh, good on you. Well, I mean, first of all, that's lovely to hear. Um, because as as you've mentioned, we've we've known each other for a wee while and and it's lovely to hear that you feel that way. And the other thing that I heard there, which I really love, is you know, I think sometimes people can launch straight into what's going on with me as in the kind of the personal, the professional me. But what you started with there is I'm healthy and my relationships are in in good health as well. You started talking about your your mum there. So that's I don't know whether that was conscious or not, but maybe an indication of of having your kind of your priorities in um in order.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I think one of the um the priorities in my life are to have a healthy perspective of just how good most people, and that's a bit of a generalization, but most people who live in UK or Ireland probably have a really high quality of life compared to millions and billions of people around the world. So, you know, so even just the fact that you know I'm in my office on my desk, I've got my gratitude journal, that's just something I've been doing over the years because the role that I have in terms of my keynote speaking, but also the work I do in terms of the corporate training and facilitation around our mind span program, a big part of that is to show people just how good your normal is. So, what a high setting our normal is. And it's really easy to lose perspective, you know, in the day-to-day challenges and struggles that we have. But actually, the more we realise just how good our our normal is, probably gives us a healthier perspective to realise, well, actually, if I can be even more grateful for my life, that's probably going to have an even more constructive impact on my happiness and contentment in life.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Do you think that you've been able to build that perspective over time? Is that a a skill that you've worked on? Or is that was it a moment where one day you saw, do you know what? I've got this new perspective. How did that evolve?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

It came very much through my relationship with a mentor of mine, a really good friend of mine, a guy called Gavin Drake, who, whenever I was 25 and playing in the first game in Norwich City, we had just been relegated from the Premier League because we didn't really like it up there. So we decided to we decided to come on out of there, out of the Premier League and gone back into the championship. So we had a great team, and and we should have got you know promoted straight back up again the next season. But the way things happened by Christmas time, we'd only won one game in 11, and the manager was under pressure, the team was struggling. So the manager brought in a sports psychologist, and it was Gavin Drake. And first time I met him, I just was so impressed with the way he handled himself, what he shared, his content, the sort of delivery in a style that so much so that you know, six years later, whenever I was coming out of professional football, he was the person that sort of helped me down this route of keynote speaking and professional speaking, as well as all the corporate training. And because of the methodology and framework he has for his mind span program, that part of that is to do with you know peak performance and and you know understand the psychology of the most successful people in the world, but also understanding what the research and the academic and empirical evidence is, what makes people happy. And the simplest way to increase your happiness is to use a gratitude journal or to be more grateful for things that are in your life. So when I came across Gavin, saw his program and realized just how powerful this is, as I said, you know, being self-serving as most people are, I thought I'm having a bit of that. So not only do we share it on the program, I also do it myself.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

I mean, you you've mentioned the the mind span, the mind span, is it the triad? Mind span triad?

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Triad, yeah, from the self-sychology, your life psychology and the word psychology. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Yeah, yeah. You mentioned that a couple of times, and I'd I'd love to love to dig a bit more in into that if you're if you're willing to. But um what I'd like to do first is maybe kind of wind it back a bit. Um I'd I'd love to understand. I mean, your resume, your background in elite sport, both as a player and support staff and in the media, together with your current work in the private sector, honestly make you such a perfect guest for the show. And I'd I'd love to, before we get into that meaty stuff, maybe rewind it back a bit because you've achieved a lot in your life, and it'd be it'd be probably a bit of a challenge to distill it down. But tell us a bit about your your journey up until this point. How have we arrived at this point?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

So, probably the brief version is I left Belfast at 16. So in 1994, I joined Tottenham Hotspur as a as a youth team player. I was one of the few players in the youth team not to have a guaranteed professional contract at the end of my two years in the youth team. So I was someone who, without realizing it, I had a very open mind for things in terms of I was really focused on all I wanted to do was be a Premier League footballer and international footballer. Really simple. That was my focus. Very determined, but let's be honest, really bang average as a player. So if I was in all of the teams from 16 onwards, I've never been the best player, I've never been the worst player. You know, obviously this doesn't work well, this joke on a on a podcast, but you know, I was in the same youth team as Crouchy, and you know, me being four foot nothing and him being a six foot seven giant, you know, just couldn't be any different in terms of uh of our stature and athleticism. So I suppose I read a book when I was 17 by Tony Robbins, who I'm sure most people have heard of, massive personal development guru in America, who's worked with you know last five presidents and CEO of Sony and Navy C's and all sorts. And I read a book of his Awakening the Jam within when I was when I was 17. A friend of mine gave it to me. And it literally changed the trajectory of my life because I suddenly was like the blinkers came off and having a not realizing having a quite a narrow-minded view coming across from Belfast, probably through no fault of my own or my parents or friends. But quite a blinkered view. Suddenly read this book and just was blown away. And I suppose the key message of it was stop looking outside of yourself because everything you'll ever need going forward, you already have. For a 17-year-old kid, first of all, 17-year-old young, aspiring footballer reading a book on a professional or personal development is probably quite unusual. Having conversations with mum about doing yoga and started that at 17, 25 years later, still doing it. Speaking of my dad about visualization because he was a Gulf fan, doing what Jack Nicholas did, and a plan that in my life all the way through, took me through a professional career of nearly 20 years for Spurs and Norwich City, Burnley, Lutontown, Northern Ireland. And eventually when it came out, I suppose the common theme over the last 20 odd years has been that I have a very open mind to what I want to achieve and how I want to do it, but also I'm very, very determined to live the life that I have consciously decided I want to create for myself. Which unfortunately, in my experience, is quite unusual. Because if I ask most people, you know, what do you want? A lot of people can't tell you. And that's, you know, without being judgmental, it's more an observation. But a lot of people have really no idea what they're doing, where they're going. And so without that clarity, because if you go to the opposite end of that spectrum, the top performers that I've either played with, worked with in business, or just been around, they're so crystal clear exactly what they want and how they want to do it. Now, their approach can differ and they can be flexible, but no matter what comes across their path, they're going to make sure they still achieve their goal. Opposite end of that spectrum is when you ask most people what do you want, and eventually they'll come out with a few, you know, half-baked things they might have thought of off the top of their head. And then you ask them, okay, so probably if you've had those kind of things, you probably feel successful. And you're going, Yeah, yeah, I feel successful. And you go, okay, so what's your definition of success? And again, most people will be like, I don't know. So it's it's something that the open-mindedness as well as being really, really clear about what I wanted to achieve in football, transitioning out of football now that I'm doing my keynote speaking. You know, really clear that my goal now over the next two years is to speak in 50 different countries across five different continents around the world. And where are you at with that goal then?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

How many?

SPEAKER_01 14:51

16 countries across three continents. Okay. So you've got a few to go. I've got quite a few to go. So this year I want to do about 17 new countries on one continent, if I can. That's the plan. And I'll see them again next year. So great. And in the months, then you kind of start to realise just how much you need to be doing.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Great. I've certainly talked to you before about uh an organization that I'm involved with called NISP. And uh I've I'm uh seeing them in in Ghent in a couple of months' time. So depending on where the uh the conference is next year, I'll certainly be petitioning them to uh to get you along. Uh not just to to forward towards your goal. I'm I'm sure you'll be a fantastic speaker for the conference as well. But one of the um the things that you brought up there, which I thought was quite interesting, was about the the clarity of the of a goal. And you mentioned that on a on an individual level, the clarity of where you want to go or what you want to achieve. Have you found that as well in your work in the private sector as well with companies? Do you find that if companies don't have a really clear idea of where they want to go, it has a similar a similar dynamic?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yeah, it's sort of it's interesting the more work that you do, and and especially in bigger organizations. So I'm doing a lot of work with multinationals, and because there's just so many people in so many departments that to have a clear, joined up strategy of learning development or training of their staff doesn't always happen. So I'll give you an example. I'm currently working with uh a bank that's part of the RBS group, and they've asked me to do four keynotes for them at the minute, which is obviously brilliant because they keep inviting me in and keep doing it at different departments. But the other side of that is is that I know a girl who has been at every single one of my keynotes, which means she's seeing this session because obviously I have a you know, I have a methodology and I have a way of working through. So if my first session that I deliver for any new any new team or client or group of people will be one session, and then you move into the next set of sessions and through the next modules and then onto the the next part of the program. Yeah. Every time I go to another department, there's always back to the first step. But because there hasn't been that clear joined up approach of how who's going to be in the room, as opposed to just pause coming and do the session and people can be invited or can attend themselves. So without having that clarity of what they want out of it, how they're trying to do it and who can attend is really a struggle. And I'm uh I'm starting to realize that not everyone is is as clear.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah, that's super that's super interesting. The the book that I've just finished reading is Creativity Inc. by uh Ed Catmull, who's one of the guys who started up uh Pixar.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

And he was so focused on that point you've just raised about the clarity of what's going on across the business. They ended up creating something called Notes Day, which is a day for every one of their, I think something over like a over a thousand employees, which is enormous for a creativity business. And every one of those 1,000 employees are invited to Notes Day, which is held on their campus every year, where they divide down all of the issues that are going on in the business from the legal department to the storyboarding to the lighting. And everyone comes out of that day with absolute clarity about what the business is doing well, what's not doing well, and where they want to go.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Okay. And that and that's and that's also the you know the difference probably between a company like Apexar and maybe a whole raft of other companies that you wouldn't want to mention.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

I mean, it takes me on to a question that I've been dying to ask, or a couple of questions that I've been dying to ask, and I think are going to be a kind of stalwart question for the podcast. Um, but what makes a great team? What are those ingredients and and elements that that make a great team, regardless of whether it's you know, Norwich City playing in the Premier League or a you know a business in Ireland or a business in in the UK that are striving to achieve?

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Um good question, really good question. Multifaceted is probably the first part that having the having the variety of skills, whether that be the people who have the kind of the drive and determination, and probably going back to that point again, the clarity of what it is, versus the the the people who just get on with the jobs and don't really want any kind of leadership role or don't want anyone to kind of or they don't want to be able to in charge of people and don't want to tell people what to do, they just want to be told what to do and sort of like just do this, do that. And it's funny as um as you ask me that question, it what came to mind was uh we had a former manager in Northern Ireland called Laurie McMenemy, former Southampton manager, and um I remember one of his first training sessions, I think it might have been my first time ever joining up with the Northern Ireland squad, the senior squad, and he said, just remember, lads, in football, there's piano players and piano pushers. Just remember which one you are. You know, but I suppose it just it was just a good little analogy to be able to say that you know everybody has their different roles within a team and that the function of what you're doing, and it's interesting because I I get asked to do a lot of stuff around teamwork and around you know what makes because obviously my kind of niche that I that I work in is around the individual psychology and and elite performance and and what's the mindset that's needed for to maximize your performance. But a lot of times you get asked about the teamwork, and I know I'm biased just because of the area that I'm most passionate about, and obviously that we study it all, and obviously my own experience in in football, but it makes me come back to going, I know you need to have the team as the ultimate goal, but actually the team is only made up of the individuals within that team. And as soon as one person or one part of that team doesn't do the job as efficiently or at a standard that's required, the team doesn't function. But as soon as the team doesn't function, it goes back to the individual of why you're not doing your job, what can we do to help you do your job, or let's get you out and bring someone in. So that's why, as I said, I'm really biased on this. But no matter what the team is, I really don't believe that you need to look any further than maximizing the individual's mindset.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah, that's super interesting. Uh there's definitely a quote somewhere or an interview with Clive Woodward, who obviously won the World Cup with the England rugby team. And I think he said his first priority when he became the coach was before they even focused on some of the teamwork stuff, was to get 15 world class individuals into that team.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

And and I know that you know that obviously there's the phrase about you know the sum being greater than the parts, but that only happens when the parts are functioning. So, and like you talked about Clive Woodward there. I would you know take your Clive Woodward and raise you a Bill Belichick and say he his motto, his mantra is just do your job. Just do your job because the when the team don't function is when the individual doesn't do the job. If you only have one job to do, and it's to stop that person or your man doing that, or whatever the whatever the skill or game or sport is, if you just have that one job and that's all you need to do, if you do it, team functions. If you don't do it, team doesn't function. For me, the team, of course, it's the most important part, and people sacrifice loads of things for the team. But even if I were to step into that kind of psyche or mindset for a second, Pete, I would say, okay, so I had loads of players who weren't the most skillful, weren't the most technically gifted, but they just what you would call sacrifice themselves. They did that extra run to sacrifice themselves back to get, you know, do someone else's running or make a tackle that someone else didn't get back for. That is almost like they sacrifice themselves and inverted commas. I'm thinking it's going, well, the only reason why that person's in the team because they can do that, but they can't do the other side when you give them the ball. So for me, okay, are they sacrificing themselves or are they self-serving and doing what they're good at because that's their individual job? Because if you give them a ball and ask them to dribble around three players, they can't do it. So again, it comes back to the individual. What is it that you need to do to function within the team environment? So, of course, teamwork is huge. And you know, I'm not going to sit here and say that you know there's absolutely no point in doing the teamwork, but listen to Clive Woodward. You need to get the individual's function. Once you get that, then all those individuals together become unbelievably powerful.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

I think it's an important insight to bring to the surface because certainly in our industry you hear a lot about teamwork and systemic working and systems, etc., etc., how to bring the best out of the team. And maybe it is sometimes a little bit that elephant in the room that you know it's a lot easier to do that stuff when you've got world-class individuals who have got key outlined roles and responsibilities and know what what are the jobs that they're doing in that team and have the the competency to do it.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah, no, absolutely. And and and even if you if you don't, and this, and this is why, and again, I think it's just obviously I'm coming out with all of my biases from my life and my career. But as soon as I stop performing, I'm not part of that team. Now, that's obviously different in a in a work perspective, in a business perspective, because if you have 25 people in a department and one person isn't performing, you don't go right, okay, come on, Paul, you're out page. See you later. You know, don't be coming back. Obviously, it doesn't work like that in 2020. They will be at some point going, listen, you need to be doing your job. If you're not doing your job, then there's going to be some way that that manager or that leader, whoever's responsible for that group or that team, is gonna start saying they're not capable of doing the job, or they're just not performing their roles. And so yeah, move them out and bring someone else in, or we need to put all our time and energy into being able to get them up to the level that everyone else is at. It just keeps coming back to the individual. So forget about the team, it's back to the individual. What are they doing?

Half time reflection

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Right then, time for the halftime oranges and a breather. Feel free to pause the recording here and pop the kettle on. For those of you keen to press on, let's take a minute to reflect on what we've just heard. One thing that stood out for me was Paul's point around perspective. I loved his soundbite, getting people to understand just how good their normal is, and it being easy to lose perspective amongst the daily challenges and struggles of life. And then it's easy to lose sight of the quality of life that we have in comparison to millions around the world. This reminded me of something that I read in Sapiens by the historian and philosopher Yuval Noah Harari. He writes, One of our most important findings is that happiness doesn't really depend on objective conditions or either wealth, health, or even community. Rather, it depends on the correlation between the objective conditions and subjective expectations. He goes on to say, puppets, poets, and philosophers realized thousands of years ago that being satisfied with what you already have is far more important than getting more of what you want. For us moderns, he says, our expectations of ease and pleasure and intolerance of inconvenience and discomfort have increased to such an extent that we may well suffer from pain more than our ancestors did. Finally, if happiness is determined by expectations, then two pillars of modern society, mass media and advertising, may unwittingly be deleting the globe's reservoirs of contentment. Quite strong stuff there, and speaking as a marketing strategist, not a comfortable message to read, but I'll try not to take that too personally. In fact, social media is also often a quoted scourge of contentment, with many early studies citing a negative link between social media use and mental health, punctuated by its ability to propagate unrealistic social comparisons that we all consciously or unconsciously use as yardsticks to compare our own successes, body image, social success, etc. etc. It's amazing to think that Facebook is only just over a decade old. Therefore, it might be some time before the long-term consequences of social media use filter out into academic research. But what can we do about all of this? Paul recommends engaging in gratitude, maybe through a journal that you keep for yourself, or it might be letters that you write to others. There is some incredible evidence for the power of gratitude on our mental health. In fact, a 2018 paper by Wong et al in the Journal of Psychotherapy research found that in a study of 300 people seeking psychotherapy services, participants in the gratitude condition reported significantly better mental health outcomes. There is indication that this may be beneficial on a neurological level, although I've personally struggled to find a replication of these results. According to an article in nursing management, when we're expressing gratitude or reflecting on positives, our brains release dopamine and serotonin, which trigger positive emotions such as optimism and intrinsic motivation. So some interesting possible mechanisms there. Looping back round again to the evolutionary and historical viewpoint of Harari and Sapiens, I suppose he would say this makes sense. We have evolved as social animals within groups. Therefore, practices that bring us closer to those groups or help us to reflect on the positive aspects or our role within those groups may very well be helpful habits to get into. Right. The ref is blown for the second half, so it's time to dive back into the conversation with Paul McVeigh. Yeah, it's very interesting you you bring that up. I think there's a really famous culture document, which is freely available to see on the internet from Netflix, who were really keen to not communicate that Netflix were a family. They didn't like this idea that a company is a family. They wanted to communicate that they were much more like a high performance sports team. Um and they they do go to some quite interesting lengths to evidence that. So it's it's interesting to see some of these new breed startup tech companies coming out of Silicon Valley who are trying to borrow maybe some of that more, you know, you you have to perform element from that world of sport.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

But and again, it's it's it's interesting that you say dog eat dog, and I just say it's normal. If I'm not performing, then I don't expect to be in the team. I don't expect to be rewarded with contracts.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Yeah, that's a great observation. Certainly, that's probably my my background projecting on onto that world. Yeah, very good observation. So on that note, what's the best team you've been a part of?

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Um well, I suppose if I'm gonna talk about a team of in a sporting life, then I would probably suggest the two title-winning teams, but I think that's quite obvious. It's again it's interesting because I remember when we had the the first year that it won a league title, we won the championship and we got promoted in the Premier League, and we had a a centre half called Craig Fleming, who's actually an assistant uh or first team coach to uh Hassenhootl down in Southampton at the minute. He used to come in and say, when we're about March, April time, just as we were kind of winning the league, and he just turned around and he said, Marca, see if you could bottle what we have right now, you would be a multimillionaire. And I kind of I understood what he meant, but it is that X factor that you don't realize how it all comes together. It almost culminates over months and months and months and months, and sometimes it can be years, of individual sacrifices and working towards something until eventually you get to the point where we were at with like two games to go. We'd won the league, we got promoted, and we didn't really need to perform in those last couple of games. But it is the feeling that he's talking about. It's that feeling that we're all bought in and we're all invested in the one common goal. And I suppose that's where if we're going to talk about a team, it was because we were all working towards the same goal in the same direction, all pulling at the same time. Although that's the kind of the nice, fluffy, you know, what everybody sees and the kind of the headlines. But what you didn't see was the people who were in the squad, who weren't part of the squad, that the manager wasn't playing because he didn't think they were good enough, who didn't want to be there, weren't part of the team, didn't really like the club at the time. So it's interesting because it's almost because I was part of it and I was getting the rewards, and and obviously I was playing at the time. That made me feel like that was one of the best teams I've ever played in. But then the same thing happened in my last year at Norwich City when I had a second spell there under Paul Lambert, and we actually started that season after about four games. We were bottom of the league, and Paul Lambert came over, and I've just never seen a guy have such a transformational effect on a group of players because he turned what was pretty a decent team, but they've got to say the standards and the professionalism was really low, they were really low at the time, and he'd just come in. This is a guy who's won the Champions League with Bruce Dortman, Man Mark Sedan out of the Champions League final. His standards were so ridiculously high that in every single training session, the first nanosecond, whenever the standards dropped, he didn't say a lot. And as soon as that happened, he was in, hammered someone, walked back off again, and just stood there and observed. And then from that point on, everybody was just following his lead. And that also just reminds me, Pete, do you remember whenever we were studying around the whole what leadership is? And it always used to be about this sort of you know, larger than life character who could lead and sort of influence people, and then I started going, well, actually, is it more the carrot and stick and sort of just people were beating people in the in the submission to do what they did through leadership? Yeah. Or that arm around the shoulder, and then actually we're thinking, well, actually, leadership's more of a relationship, and it's you know, you can't be a leader unless you have a followership, and all of the ways that you start sort of understanding the nuances of leadership. But whenever I see Paul Lambert, if there was one thing I learned from him in terms of leadership, it was his single-minded focus of what he wanted to achieve, and that was to win the league, get promoted back into the championship, and he dragged people kicking and screaming with him for the entire entire season until we went on a 35-game unbeaten run and won the league.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Well, do you think the fact that he had that credibility in the game, because Paul had a fantastic career, played for Scotland, Celtic, as you said, won the won the Champions League. Do you think that gave him the credibility to come in and be quite focused on those those standards?

SPEAKER_01 34:44

I think that it was an amazing starting point. But you know, it's interesting why, because whenever you think about footballers and the the stereotype of a footballer, and it's probably why I you know I called them a book the stupid footballer is dead, because I was always quite upset and offended when people took such a low opinion of me, and just thinking everybody who's involved in the world of football is stupid, you know, academically stupid. And I just thought, well, that's not really true. I don't think so. And also, if you walk into it in front of a group of footballers, they are so astute and switched on, and they will eat you alive within seconds. They can work you out, they can see what you want, they can and they're just so smart, not necessarily academically smart, but street smart, you know, they've got their body language because of so many thousands of people come up to them all the time. So they're very, very good at understanding people. So, in terms of Paul Lambert, is a great starting point because you think, wow, he's won the Champions League, but what's he like as a manager? And then suddenly you saw his impeccably high standards every single day, even a simple thing, and this is a simple thing because in the business world, this is nothing, but in the football world, he came in the suit every day, and then he walked out and he just stood there waiting. And for the first moment of people dropping their standards, he was on them. So he would never accept second best in every single thing we did. So it was those standards of professionalism that probably made me put him at the very, very top of why I would say he was the best leader and manager I've ever been part of, which is why that was probably the best team I was ever a part of.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Great. To reflect on some of those ingredients, what I'm hearing is you had a set of high-quality individuals that were pulling towards a single goal. You had a guy at the helm who had incredibly high standards that you were all willing to buy into and enact every day on the training ground and then put into to practice on on the weekends or in the in the midweek in the league games. And those ingredients provided great recipe for success. Yep, that's pretty much it, nailed it. There you go. Done. Done. We've done it. Um what I'm really interested in is therefore, once you've made the the transition out of your athletic career into very successful media business. Also, you mentioned you you authored the book as as well, The Super Footballer is Dead. Anyone listening, check it out on Amazon or your your local bookshop.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Or my website, Pete. All right.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, really, I mean, you know, great transition out of the athletic world because not not all of you know, not all of your your professional athletes, you know, brethren would would be able to say the same thing. And I'm really interested to know now that you're spending so much time in in teams within the the private sector, within within business, within finance, within banking, without you don't have to name names if you don't want to, but have you encountered any teams that you've gone into Donnabese did have consulting work for and you've gone, wow, these guys these guys have got it. You know, they have got a fantastic formula.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Honestly, in work, yes, in life, no. Interesting. Very, very few people have I come across in the business world that are nailing it across both areas of their life. And obviously, both areas I'm just sort of dividing their life into that dichotomy of work and personal life. But actually, within the work, you're probably gonna have four or five elements within your personal life, you're probably gonna have another nine or ten different elements. And I think this is maybe why, Pete, I I was so impressed with Gavin Drake because I've never seen anyone who walks their talk so well. A lot of people, you know, proclaim to be experts, like putting themselves up on a pedestal to say, this is what I do, and this is what maybe you could do, and etc., but don't don't necessarily live exactly what they're talking about or what they're preaching. And so whenever I saw how Gavin lives his life in terms of uh happily married mom, so that's the first thing. He's got two lovely kids, two of the nicest kids you'd ever meet. He's got a very successful business, this mind span business that he's been running for himself probably for 25 years now. And and that all really originated off of the back of he had a very successful career in um in sales and and training anyway. But he always had this probably like a little kind of you know, a little question at the back of his mind of, but is this it? You know, he had like you know, the nice, nice house and had a mortgage with his wife and two small kids. So he had the company car, expense account, nice job, nice perks and stuff. But that question that kept coming back to him every kind of probably Friday night when he's sitting down and have a glass of wine with his wife was Is this it? Is this is this what I'm doing? This I'm kind of 30, you know, is this is this what I want to do for the rest of my life? And the question that kept coming up every couple of weeks, a couple of months, until eventually his wife just asked him a simple question. Well, if you do give up your job and start your own training business, which you say you keep wanting to do and that's all you want to do, what's the worst that can happen? And I think that one question was really what stimulated him to go, well, actually you're right, because if I give up this job and I'm doing well and and you know start this training business that I wanted to start, if after six months I have no money coming in and you know I'm not I'm not earning or not doing what I want to do, let's go back and get a job again because he's obviously you know doing well on what he was doing, and plenty of companies would have taken him. That was 25 years ago, and and since then he's run a very successful training business that's been you know delivered in over 14 countries around the world, the over 140,000 people. And the key point that everything I'm talking about here is when I see how he lives his life, he's like 50, I think he's 55 now, and he just has so much time for each area of his life that that is going back to the point of you said about is anyone really nailing it? And the reason why I would say mostly no. I'll give an example. I went in and did a keynote for a law firm up in Leeds just before Christmas. So you've got 50 senior partners of a you know, really successful turnover, multi-million pounds every single year. And I'm saying, so just out of interest, everyone in here got goals or targets for the workplace, every single person in the room, 50 partners, senior partners put their hands up. Brilliant. Okay, so tell me this who in here has well thought out, well constructed, and this is the key, written down goals or targets for your personal life, and that one person put their hand up. And that is probably just a good example of a lot of people who are in business who are very, very successful in their work life. And it's a bit like you know, the spin spin and plate analogy that their work life's going great. How's their fitness? How's their health? How's their home life? How's their relationships? What's their other, what's their hobbies like? How often do they see the kid? You know, and I'm not saying everybody, it's not like a sweeping statement, but as a general rule of thumb, I would say most people who are doing really, really well in their in their work life, other parts of the life are probably going, okay, not bad, not great, probably could do with a lot of work. And so when I go back to Gavin, that just when I see him, it amazes me because he's in really good shape, because he takes care of himself. He does meditating, so he has that kind of sense of calmness in all the daily challenges because he runs a business and he's doing all sorts of miles every year, delivering sessions all over the country and all over Europe. But then he still has time for his fitness, still gets the time for his wife, still has time with his friends, sees his kids. His son lives in Saudi Arabia, goes to visit him, has always has a smile on his face, deals with people. You know, it's just like wow. It's not you know, a bit like when I grow up, that's what I want to be like.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

So, and that's and that's why he's he's such a role model and such a mentor for me, because I I've never really come across anyone else who's who's nailing life the way he is. Surprised me as well because you know why? The whole point of the mind span program is to understand what the most successful people in life, how they do things. And the way that you generally do well across all areas of your life is you're really clear what you want to achieve in all areas of your life. And going back to the lead scenario, when I ask him, got go to your targets for work. Because if it's start of every financial year, every single person that well-run, well-organized business, has very clear objectives for what they want to do in their work life. And I'm just saying, okay, so what are you doing in your personal life? They're like, I don't know. And I'm going, well, you just apply in the same framework or methodology to your personal life. But most people have no idea what they're doing, what they're going to work for. They're just going to work. And let's be honest, most people are just trying to get through the day.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

I mean, that's super interesting. That insight into how focused people can be in their professional lives. And I'm sure you know this translates really well into probably what I'm sure you observed a lot in your athletic career people focusing just on that athlete part of their idea. Identity, but then in the working world, just focusing on the professional part of my identity, but not leaving myself enough time to think about those other other bits in my pie chart, you know, my personal self, the exercise and fitness self, the the friends, the family member, the supporter, etc.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

And the interesting thing about that, Pete, is that I don't know why I became aware of this as I was, maybe the conversations was happening with Gavin when I was 25, 26, because this subject of psychology and personal development, you know, it's I've I've just always loved it. And I kind of realized a long, long time ago that really the best investment that I could ever make is just in me. And when I say in me is in my psychology, in my mindset, and my attitude of what I learn, how I understand, how people function, because the more that I invest in that, the better quality of life I seem to have. So whenever I think about people transitioning out of sport or partners transition, and so for instance, I was speaking one of the big four today, speaking to one of their team members, and they were saying that actually one of the uh courses that they run is for partners who are five years away from retirement, and they're talking about what they can do and how can the business help them transition away from being a very successful person in a multi-billion pound organization to suddenly stepping out of work and they're retired and they don't come back and work and what do they do with their lives? And I'm saying, well, that's really interesting because whenever I'm coming out of football, one of the things that I realized probably way before I stopped playing was that my identity cannot be solely as a professional footballer. Because I don't know why this sort of came across my path or why I was aware of this, but in my mid-20s, I understood that professional football is an extrinsic event because I cannot, no matter how much I want to, give myself a professional football contract. I can put myself in the best position, I can be as fit as I can be, I can score as many goals as I can, I can give myself the best possible opportunity for a football club or a football manager, chief exec to come along and say, Paul, we'd like to sign you. Here's a contract. But it's still an extrinsic event, which means if I'm aligning my entire identity, which is very easy to do when you're a professional footballer, by the way, because it's so easy to get caught up in that little bubble and all the glamour and the, let's say, the benefits that come along with being a professional footballer, it's very easy to wrap your identity up in it. But of course, when you realize that your identity is an extrinsic event of a professional footballing contract, well, actually, if I get this stage and we're all going to get there at some stage, and for me, it was at 32, whenever I was starting to get a bit slow, a bit overweight, a bit too, you know, a bit over the hill. And whipper snappers were coming in and running past me and knocking me off the ball. And actually, I just thought, you know what? I've got to the point where I've sort of I've done what I wanted to do, I'm happy with from my lot, and I'm gonna decide to move away from football. And if I have 10 things that I believe I am in my identity, whether it's Irish, a son, a brother, I was a student at the time, doing my doing a sports science degree, I was a landlord, I was learning the piano, I was learning the guitar, I was doing all these different things. So I didn't just see myself as a professional footballer. So even when I decided to stop doing it, out of the 10 things I identified as myself, as Paul McVeigh, suddenly one thing comes out. I still have nine things that I'm carrying on my life with. And I think probably a big reason why a lot of people either struggle, transition out of the military, struggle, transition out of a partner, out of a multi-billion pound organization, or athletes transition out of sport, is because their whole identity is wrapped up in what they do as a job. And as soon as that's the case, because all jobs, all professional contracts are all extrinsic events, if it's just based on that, then there's a real serious issue there.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Well, is that a key tenet to a key pillar within the mind span triad that you use when you go into businesses is to get the individuals within those businesses to think about those other parts of themselves?

SPEAKER_01 48:20

No, because most of the people we work with aren't transitioning out of something. Most are trying to get to the pinnacle. So most of the organizations are trying to improve performance. You know, most kind of, even if it's an AMD partners, whoever it is, they're still trying to keep improving. Whereas I'm talking about someone who's about to step away from a business, someone who's stepping transition out of sports, someone who's stepping away from you know the end of their career. That ultimately, when I'm saying identity, remember what we started on the conversation at the very start in terms of how are you? I'm embarrassing it well. That's a belief that if I keep saying to myself, I'm probably going to keep believing that. So the identity that I have is just a belief that I have about myself. So really we're talking about the beliefs that we create for ourselves. And again, how do we create beliefs? I don't know what your understanding of it, Pete, but the only way that I believe we create it's hard to say I believe how we believe about ourselves, but um something the way I would define a belief or the way that mind span and the team I'm working with, we define a belief as something you accept as true or real. Okay. Only something that you accept as true or real, then we all have completely different beliefs, and yet we'll have beliefs that are helpful and effective and constructive for our lives. And of course, we're going to have beliefs that are actually quite damaging, quite destructive, and actually quite limiting. And I suppose when we start working with people around their beliefs, the question is does your belief system allow you to create the life that you're wanting to create? When actually the the precursor to that is actually, have you got any idea what you're trying to create? How do you even know what beliefs you need to create for yourself? So I'll give you an example. Whenever I started off in the youth team, we had a young guy playing with his first year youth team with me, a guy called Rory Allen. Do you remember Rory Allen?

SPEAKER_00 50:08

If you don't, we do. Okay. I do, yeah. The name rings a bell, yeah. Well, I was I was a prolific championship manager player around the time that you were you were you're a wee bit older than me, Paul. So I was probably still still uh studying for my GCCs and playing uh championship manager.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Some people younger, but yes, I am older than you. Yeah. Um anyway, so yeah, so Rory and I were in the same youth team together. So just to give a wee bit of context for this, is that on my first day, training at Tottenham Hotspur was in July 1994, and Jurgen Klinsman had just signed for us after the World Cup in the USA. Now the first team weren't in, so the press had all turned up because it was Clinsman that just signed, and they needed him basically doing some you know trainings in the training gear, etc. So my first training session was training, standing next to Jurgen Klinsman, a World Cup winner who's just started in the USA 94, and I'm standing next to him, and the internal dialogue that I was having people was going, there's no way in the world I'm ever gonna be a professional footballer if that's what you need to be like. Wow. So as a limiting belief, it was pretty limited because I was only there. I'd left all my family and friends in Belfast and joined Spurs in London just to be a professional footballer. And yet the belief I had about myself was completely unaware, by the way. I had no conscious awareness of this was my belief. So that's the first part of it. Going back to Rory Allen, Rory was always the kind of the best player on our team. So when we're in the first year youth team, he got into the second year youth team. So he was in the team that won the captain FA Youth Cup final, and I didn't get in because I wasn't good enough to get in that team. Then in the second year, I got into the second year youth team, and then Rory got into the reserves in that year, and I wasn't good enough to get in. But then the next year I signed my first professional contract on a crazy 180 pounds a week. Get me anyway. So um and then on that year, in my first year as a professional in the reserves, I'm sitting at Whiteheart Lane watching the Spurs play Manchester United in the Premier League live on Sky Sports. Rory Allen's made his debut and scores against Manchester United in that whole team with background schools, games, games, and all the rest of it. Now I'm watching my mate score a goal in the Premier League, and in a split second, in my head, I thought, wow, if Rory can do that, so can I three months later? I'd made my Premier League debut up from a teddy sharing against Aston Villa two games later, a score on my home debut against Coventry City. And that for me just shows the power of beliefs. But also going back to it, when I'm talking about the beliefs that we have about ourselves, I'm saying, do your beliefs allow you to create the life that you want to achieve? Because if your belief is that you want to have a six-bedroom house and a million pounds in the bank and a Ferrari on your drive, but your belief is um probably never ever gonna do that, probably not gonna happen. So that's why it's so, so important to understand how we actually form beliefs, what it is, and so the three ways that we would say you form beliefs is through repetition. Because if you keep telling yourself something, you're probably gonna start believing it. Or if actually, if someone else keeps telling you, you're probably gonna keep believing it. Um, through an emotionally charged experience, you know, like a Rory Allen. Suddenly I'm sitting there going, Wow, if he can do that, I'm saying my mate, I'm cheering for him because my mate scored in the Premier League against Mandel United. Emotionally charged experience. I'm going, if he can do it, so can I change my belief? And the other way is just adopting the view of someone else. The amount of times that I've just listened to someone on a podcast or listened to someone in a seminar or in a class or read a book or whatever it is, and I went, Well, I think that's a good idea. I'm just going to do that. So it's almost like just adopting the view of someone else, and that's now my belief. So this is the other side of you know, just understanding how powerful they are, because actually our beliefs are running their lives, and most people probably aren't aware of exactly what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

And just moving the focus out into a bit of a bird's eye, looking at the system or the kind of the culture of an organization. Do you think a good first step is to work on the individual limiting beliefs of its key people?

SPEAKER_01 54:28

I suppose that would be from a strategic point of view, be focusing straight away on the kind of the less unhelpful beliefs, where I'm more of around that kind of Martin Seligman positive psychology of wanting to focus on what they do well, what they can improve, what we can actually look to achieve, what we want to achieve rather than all the things that are going wrong. So definitely, and again, Pete, it's only just part of, you know, it's one element within a bigger framework of just how probably the most successful, the happiest people, the most content, most fulfilled people that I've ever seen, ever come across, researched, worked with, this is what they're doing. And that one element is only one aspect of it. So, in terms of the belief that they have about themselves, that they are capable of achieving what they want to achieve. But then that's all one of you know a hundred other different subjects or tenets or pillars of what's going to allow them to be successful. And again, one of one aspect of that is do they even understand what that success looks like for them?

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Great. Well, look, I mean, some fantastic insights there. We're we're running to the end of uh the hour together. I've just got a couple of kind of quickfire uh questions just to end the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Nation street or amory.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

Yeah, well, because I'm really interested to see the the different answers that we get back. But the uh the first one is, and I suppose it's less of a question, but finishing off the sentence. Uh the first one is success is balance. Success is balance.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

My answer, yeah. Success is balanced for me. When I was 16, the success was being a Premier League international footballer from 32 onwards. Success is balanced because I didn't have any balance up to 32 because 99.9% of my life was on football. Coming out of football, all I want is balance. So I don't want to be a multimillionaire, I don't want to spend all my time working, I don't want to spend all my time lazy around, I don't want to spend all my time in Belfast, I want to be traveling, I want to have a bit of money, I want to do some property stuff, I want to have some family time, I want to have some holidays, I want to be traveling the world doing different speaking things, I want to help my community give some back. I want to do some spiritual stuff for me, I want to do some physical stuff, I want to do some personal challenges, so yeah, it's balance.

SPEAKER_00 56:49

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

Okay, second one teamwork is the most fun thing I have in my life because when I do any kind of training or anything that I'm involved in, when I do it by myself, it's like oh, this is okay. As soon as I do it with other people, the enjoyment factor multiplies by 10. I love it. Fun and balance. That's not bad to get in your line.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

That's not bad, eh? Okay. Let's go up on the Jackson family whiteboard in the kitchen, certainly for the next week. I love it. Well, look, Paul, thank you again so much for sharing your your time and your insights today. It's really, really appreciated. And look, absolutely best of luck with all of your different endeavours, all of the plates that you've got spinning, including the important family ones and the health and the fitness as well. Best of luck with it all and uh and thanks again.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

No pleasure. Where do you send the invoice to?

SPEAKER_00 57:46

It's in the post. It's in the post. It's in the post.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

No, no, not your invoice to me, my invoice to you.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

It's in the post, I told you. Um, thanks again, Paul, and uh have a have a good one. Have a great year.

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_00 58:01

If you're still here, thanks so much for listening to this episode of Slice of Pie. If you're listening from an Apple device, a review on iTunes would be hugely appreciated and will help others discover these conversations as well. So, what can we look back on after the final whistle? The first thing that stood out for me was Paul's use of goals and values. Like the rest of us, Paul has measurable goals that he can work towards, like his ambition to speak in 50 different countries in five different continents. But in the backdrop of his goals, he has very clear values around balance, family, community, travelling, personal growth in the speaking world, giving back, physical health. It reminded me of some ACT passages from the Happiness Trap book by Russ Harris. Apologies, I've mentioned this book a few times on the podcast now. I'll try to start varying my references a bit more in future, as you'll probably think I've only read one book. But here are the passages. Harris writes, There's a potential danger in telling inspirational stories. The danger is in the way we define success. Whether we're talking about artists, doctors, athletes, business people, rock stars, politicians, or police officers, inverticomas successful people are typically defined in terms of the goals they've achieved. And if we buy into this limited definition, then we're condemned to a goal-focused life, a chronic frustration punctuated by fleeting moments of gratification. So Harris invites us to consider a new definition of success. Success in life means living by your values. Adopting this definition, he writes, means you can be successful right now. You know when you are acting on your values, and that's enough. And it sounds like Paul has got this great balance of goals to give him drive and focus, but not being too defined by whether he achieves those goals or not because of his underpinning values that can always point the way forward. Secondly, and related to the above point, Paul had this incredible poignant moment after reading the Tony Robbins book very early in his career, and I'm quoting back from the podcast now, to stop looking outside of yourself because everything you need, you already have inside you. Paul stresses at great length how he's no longer interested in being defined or to divine his own self-worth through factors that are outside of his control. So this internal locus of control, combined with the strong values he can live every day and every week, seem to feed into the opically positive and optimistic and panoramic perspective he has on life. Inspiring stuff. Well, that's enough reflecting for this week. Thanks again for enjoying another slice of pie with me and looking forward to putting out the next episode in a week's time. Hopefully, see you then. In the meantime, thanks for listening and have a good week.