SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello, and welcome back to the Slicer Pi podcast, where the Pi stands for the Psychologically Informed Environment. And the mission is to further our understanding of what that looks like across environments, domains, workplaces, organisations, teams, and any other group where well-being and performance are primary issues. This week's guest has got a very impressive list of experiences across many environments, both as an athlete and a sports psychology consultant. Jenna Wolven played national level and junior international level hockey before transitioning into sports marketing and then into her now career of sport and exercise psychology. She then went to work for Sports and Management Consultancy Lane 4, where she worked with various businesses and sport organisations, including a year where she was embedded into the Football Association and based at St. George's Park. She's now an independent consultant and passionate about helping people to realise their potential, achieve their goals, and live more fulfilled lives. In this conversation, we talk about consulting with sporting or business teams, being embedded in organizations and how to help bring about meaningful engagement with sport or work. In every conversation, it's great to hear the experiences of those that have worked in different parts of the high performance world, and it's very interesting to get a perspective from the world of management consultancy and sports psychology consultancy. Before we jump into the conversation, just to thank you again to those of you tuning in again to Slice of Pie. And if you have time to leave a review of the podcast on Apple or iTunes, it would be hugely appreciated and help the show reach more people interested in this topic. Just the full-time reflection for this episode, so we'll go for about 40 minutes and then pause at the end to discuss some of the key themes. So without further ado, let's get into the conversation with Jenna Woolven. Jenna, how are we?

SPEAKER_01 2:18

I'm not too doing too bad, thanks, Pete. Yeah, not too bad. How about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah, good thanks. How are you navigating 2020, this bizarre year that is 2020?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah, it's uh it's definitely been an interesting one. I think I've sort of had probably like different phases. Um I was on furlough for quite a bit at the start, so that was kind of one phase, and then um actually left my job, so that was another phase, and now I'm starting some some new exciting projects, so sort of in in phase three. Um there's definitely been some ups and downs, but on the whole, I'm pretty optimistic and excited for for the future.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Oh wow, okay. So you are literally the the archetype of the person within 2020 where it it has caused a lot of change uh and that has opened up new new avenues for you.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think I've had to definitely had to remind myself at times um, you know, of the the old once one door closes, another one opens, kind of thing. Because sometimes when you're in in it can feel quite overwhelming. But um, yeah, I think looking forward to the future um is is always a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

It's interesting that I mean we I think we talked briefly before about as applied psychologists, or in my case as an applied trainee um psychologist, you're often either kind of giving advice or or helping people to see or understand uh thoughts or behaviors or or ideas that we kind of have a an evidence base for or a literature base for. You mentioned there around reminding yourself as one door closes, another door opens. Do you feel like reminding yourself is enough, or do you kind of do you have to kind of click out of thinking mode into actually doing mode?

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yeah, it's a good question. I think, and actually the the entire stage two process definitely helped me with applying some some psychological skills to myself. I think I've got a lot better at a reminder kind of being that flick for me. So, you know, changing from oh my goodness, this is a nightmare, what am I gonna do? To hey, look, this is this is the start of something new. Um, you know, what what could you make from it? So yeah, so I think I have got a bit better, but uh, but also like using other people for sure is is definitely one of my main strategies of of of dealing and coping with things, just talking it through with others to help me get that that sense of perspective.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

That's interesting. So using it as a switch to go, okay, right, that's my little reminder switch. What am I doing today? Or to to help or to talk with others. Yeah, both of those things, I suppose, allows you to get out of your own head. You're you'll stop. If Jenna's not speaking to Jenna too much anymore, it's it's you've moved on, you've talked to someone else, or you're doing something.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I think it's not it's not about um, you know, telling myself I shouldn't be having those thoughts or or trying to stop anything. It's just getting a different sense of perspective, really. So I think it's very natural to have all the kinds of negative and catastrophic thoughts that we have, and then it's just about okay, well, I could choose to spend my day worrying about that, or I could also choose to um take a more positive outlook on the day. So yeah, I think a bit of a switch is probably a good way of thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Yeah, it's nice. I like that bit about not telling yourself I shouldn't be having these thoughts. And um, you know, it's funny working with athletes, um, so often you find athletes who, you know, when they list down all of their kind of their thoughts and beliefs on paper, it looks super rational, looks looks super useful, looks super helpful. But then it's it it feels like sometimes that their problem is kind of tormenting themselves with catching themselves thinking in a way that they don't want to. And it's actually the it's actually how to deal with that opposed to the kind of the belief side of things.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Yeah, for sure. Totally agree. And I think yeah, often it's not actually the thoughts themselves that are necessarily the problem, it's kind of our reaction to those thoughts. So feeling nervous before a race or thinking, what if I lose is kind of part of it, it's part of competing, it's part of being, yeah, being part of a high-level sport. But it's how we respond to that. And if we take that as a complete negative and and become tense and and frustrated as a result, that's going to then have a worse effect than if we go, oh, there we go, there's that thought popping up again. Um, and just kind of moving on.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah, nice. Yeah, it's it's it's very interesting how we can work with others on this type of stuff and find just how how applicable it is to ourselves. And I suppose going back to the context of 2020, when you have a big seismic change like that come into society and on a personal level, it's it's useful to have those those tools and those resources to draw upon.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And knowing like knowing what's difficult or what's challenging about it helps you to work with clients on it as well. So, yeah, I think it's definitely a good point.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Great. So if we take a step back then from 2020 and rewind the clock, how have you got to this point then in in your career? Where did it all start for you in in sports psychology and and sport in in general? And how do we get to this point?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah, so a sort of whistle stop tour, I guess, of of the last 10 years or so for me. I for me it started in in sports. So I played hockey, did some junior international stuff, and was lucky enough to go and play abroad. I did a did a season out in Germany, a season out in Australia, and was was loving it and was having having a great time, but kind of wanted to start real life, I guess. And and and I've always wanted a career and I thought that was important to me. So I studied, didn't undergraduate in psychology. And actually, whilst I was was out working in Germany, um, I was I got sort of an internship with a sports marketing company at the time thinking, oh, this could be quite interesting. And and I and it was during that that I realized I loved marketing and I loved the office environment and everything I learned, but I definitely realized that I wanted to help people that kind of just reinforced for me the the kind of route for me was going to be psychology and helping people in some way. So I then did a master's in sport psychology, I guess combining my two biggest passions of sport and psychology, which for me just seemed perfect. Yeah, then after that, I was I was facing uh a decision around stage two and how do I actually get qualified. And I think anyone going through that process knows how challenging it is. And at that point, I sort of came across lane four, um, which is a management consultancy but has kind of heritage in elite sport. So essentially taking uh a lot of the lessons from sport and high performance into business environments, and so again for me, I just thought, wow, what what a great company, what a great opportunity. So I was lucky enough to get a job there, and I guess that then added in a final component so I I combined sport, psychology, and business. Um and was there for five years, learned an unbelievable amount. Some of the people worked there were were amazing, and uh, yeah, some of my colleagues are, you know, I I've learned so much from them. That actually came to an end a couple of months ago, so I've just left lane four. But I suppose one of the biggest experiences I had whilst at lane four was I got I got a second out to the football association.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Oh right.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

So I was embedded within the FA for a year, essentially helping to develop a high performance culture within within some of the England teams.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

And when you say embedded, what does it what does embedded look like?

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yeah, so I I I basically lived at St. George's Park.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Oh, right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Um went away on camp. So we had a pretty much a camp a month, um, which may have lasted one or two weeks. So I was either travelling with the team or or at St. George's Park. So yeah, embedded kind of just fully involved. You feel like one of them, basically. Even though I was still at Lane Four, I was I was very much part of the FA team. So there's about five of us at the time. Our our department was called People and Teams. Um, and yeah, it was it was quite a broad remit developing a high performance culture, and and we all kind of went about it in different ways, but essentially working with the head coach, the multidisciplinary team, so all the staff, as well as the players, to just yeah, and it enhance some of the ways that they worked and and thought and approached the game. So I mean I could I could go on and on about that, and I'm sure we'll we'll dig back back into it later. But that was sort of one of the one of the linchpins of of my time at lane four. And I was going through my stage two process at that point, so yeah, clocked up a fair, fair amount of hours um for that, which was which was great.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Um and so yeah, now I've just shifted from employed at lane four to self-employed. I I've got chartered just at the end of last year.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

So Congratulations.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Thank you. Yeah, it's uh it was a good feeling, that's for sure. So yeah, now now just sort of tackling the self-employed world and and finding bits of work here and there and everywhere, getting getting involved in a few really exciting projects, which are sort of all in the early stages at this point. But um, I'm excited to see where where they turn out. Uh so yeah, that's sort of like a very brief, I guess, from playing sport myself into a bit of a business environment, and then now, you know, going self-employed and and hitting the ground running myself, really.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

That was a good whistle stop tour. It must be a bit of your uh marketing experience and marketing skills, and there being able to distill such a long journey into a small package.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Um I don't know, I probably missed that quite a lot, but yeah, in essence, that that was it.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Uh yeah, it'd be lovely to to dig into the the FA experience. Sounds super interesting. But first, I'd just like to talk about you you said uh lane for using lessons from high performance sport and taking that into the business sector. I think that's super interesting. We've had a few people on the podcast who who've worked in this uh this world. How did you find taking lessons from high performance sport and applying into the business environment? And let's start with what were the the things that you felt that businesses really engaged with? What were the the things that you you kind of you took in or or did that you felt their their eyes would really light up?

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Yeah, yeah. Good question. I think just in answer to sort of part one of your question, how did I find it? I think people generally are really interested in high-performing environments. Um, and you know, I was always really passionate about delivering the workshops because, you know, say you're with a group for a day, if there was one or two things that just changed someone's mindset or made someone think a bit differently, or inspired someone to go away and do something, um, you know, that was super powerful. And I think a lot of the stories and lessons from sport and from high performing environments helped them to do that more so than um, you know, if I was in their world and I was helping them through it. I think coming from a different world is is was quite interesting to people. And I think some of the main things, it's it's yeah, again, it's quite hard to pick down, but I suppose for me, resilience was a was a massive one, you know, it's particularly in the last five years, it's become a huge topic, and achieving that work-life balance, but also you know, managing difficult people, um, you know, all the sorts of challenges that you face in the workplace. I think there's a you know a lot of stuff from from the sporting world that that's relevant to that. I did quite a bit of work around high-performing teams. So, what makes a team not just good but great? And make, you know, how do you make that shift from a well-functioning team to a high performing team? And yeah, worked with quite a few in-tech teams to help them do that. And I suppose the last one I think was particularly beneficial was around like a coaching culture. Typically, in a in a work environment, you are good at your job and you get promoted into a role that perhaps requires less time for you to do the do and more time for you to manage your team or manage other people. Um, and actually helping people to just not just tell, but help people understand how to learn and grow themselves and create an environment where people are open and free and willing to learn, I think was another massive one for me.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

So that's almost like an evergreen challenge in not just businesses but in almost all organizations, isn't it? The this point in a kind of an employee's career trajectory where they've got really good at doing something to the point where they're then asked to help others do it. Um, and they've spent all of their career or most of their career developing the the doing bit, but haven't necessarily developed the skills to help others do it, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Yeah, that's exactly it. In fact, you've articulated it much better than I just did. So yeah, yeah, spot on.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

So what what do you think are some of the helpful, the helpful tidbits or the helpful things for people in those in that position to work on? Is it about just kind of planning out what skills they need to have? Is it about reading books? Is it about having a slightly different perspective on how to develop others? What do you think some of the key things are that came up when you did that?

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Oh yeah, that is a good question. Um, I think the first one I'd start with was self-awareness. Um as a as you know, an individual contributor, if you like, as someone who just does does your job, you know, you can you can be told what to do or you can you know decide your own work, but essentially you sort of get on with it. When when you're then leading or managing others, you just have to be really aware of the impact that you're having on them. Um so I think starting at that place and starting with what's your style, what's your personality, how do how you know what's the what's the personality of the people that you're managing and how are you working together? And ultimately, I think the big question is yeah, what's the impact that you're having on them? Um, and then just helping people to understand that was was a huge part of it. I don't want to use like business speak, but um empowering business speak. Yeah, like you know, schwiel or whatever, whatever it is. But um, I think empowering others and helping people to take responsibility for themselves is a is another massive one. You know, you can create a culture where people are reliant on you, and then if you go on holiday or you're busy, it becomes really tricky. Or you can create a culture where people take responsibility for themselves and step up to the plate and then draw on you when they need to, and it's very different way of working. It's really noticeable the organizations that we go into, and you kind of see how different people operate. So I think those two are are big ones, and then just going back to again the kind of coaching culture of helping people to think for themselves um and make those decisions themselves rather than be wait to be told what to do.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Yeah, I think that that that second one obviously has huge value for both parties, isn't it? Of course, you're empowering people around you to make decisions, and you know, I suppose there's some easy parallels to draw within sport in terms of uh leadership teams within rugby teams, for example. The all blacks obviously very famously use kind of leadership teams to to distribute decision making. Um, and that's good for those people who are drawn into that process, but it's also good for you, right? Because you're actually taking um you're taking a load off your plate, you're not carrying everything on your own shoulders, your own shoulders.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And sometimes it is quite hard to do as a leader or or a coach, it's quite hard to give up that uh power or responsibility to someone who you perhaps see as less experienced or or less capable, but um in the end, exactly, it develops um it develops both sides in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah, very interesting. So one other thing that you mentioned there was um this idea that if one or two things from a workshop help to inspire people and they they come away from that, that that is seen as a a success. I suppose that that makes me think is is there something key in that world which is about setting expectations? So setting the expectation that yes, we're gonna do half a day or a day's workshop, and we're coming from another world which is sport, and we're never gonna understand your business as well as you do, but we're gonna bring this inspiration in, and if there's one or two things you can take away, that would be amazing. Um, so do you find kind of setting that that expectation, the kind of the process of doing it is as important as the content that you're bringing in?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, definitely. Um, and I would spend let's say I was with a group for a day, I would spend at least half an hour, if not up to an hour, in the morning contracting around okay, what's this day all about? What do you want from it? What's going to be most beneficial for you? How do we want to operate as a group? Um, what do you need from me? What do you need from others? So just having those types of conversations because I think getting that initial buy-in at the start is key to learning, and also just setting the expectation that I'm not just gonna stand here and and talk at you all day and tell you what I think is the right is is you know is important or is the right answer. I really want you to do that thinking yourself. So, right from the start, getting them to yeah, buy in by um doing their own thinking was was a massive part of it, and I think just on expectations, it also made me think I had to set my own expectations. So definitely early on, I wanted everyone to be fully engaged all the time, and I'd be so disappointed going away from a day if there was someone or a group of people who I didn't think had got much from it. Um, I think people come into that environment in in different mindsets and ready to learn in different ways, and you know, I couldn't control that, and so I definitely had to let go of some of that high expectation of everyone has to think it's all brilliant and just shift to if most of the group take one or two things away, that's a massive success. But recognising that some people just won't be ready to learn or won't be in that in that right mindset, and you know, whilst I'll do my very best to convince them, and sometimes it did happen, and and that was almost the most rewarding parts of the day. So when someone came in in the morning and and you could tell, though, thought that it was going to be a rubbish day, and by the end had had kind of turned around and was fully engaged in it, but yeah, other times that they wouldn't, and and that was just something I had to had to deal with, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Yeah, it sounds like you're you're trying to not fall into the the trap of doing too much mind reading there because someone on their phone in the morning session, you know, your your threat-seeking brain might be telling yourself, oh god, they're they're not liking it, but equally they might be trying to push forward their I don't know, exchange on their house. Um or you know, they might have the teacher from school ringing about daughter number two. Um so it's you know, it's I I suppose it's it's about not kind of falling into that that trap of of kind of mind reading when when you see people disengage.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, that is a really good point. And also there were times when I'd I'd get it wrong. So I'd think that someone was disengaged, and then at the end of the day, they'd be the one that came up and said, Oh, thanks so much. I got this from me, I got this from there, and I'd think, wow, I I wasn't expecting that. So yeah, I think definitely um uh you know, not necessarily judging a book from its cover.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yeah. So you mentioned you're you're now in a a stage where you're going, you've gone from kind of employed to self-employed, and you've you've got a number of projects that you're working on. Is that something that you want to kind of keep your hand in? Having had that experience within the the private sector or the business sector working on high performance teams, are you keen to keep working in that area or are you looking at doubling down in in sport? What's the balance going to look like?

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Yeah, so I'm I'm lucky enough in that I've I can do some associate work with lane four, so I can still be involved and I've got some existing relationships with clients, which I'll probably continue um through lane four. But yeah, I think I was you know, going through the stage process, stage two process definitely confirmed my my passion for sports psychology, and that's the area that I would want to spend most of my time. So I think um yeah that's definitely gonna become the main focus over the coming months and years.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Great. Well, talking of sport, let's let's use that as a segue back into your experience that year at the uh the FA. So you're embedded, living at living at St. George's Park, uh fully involved. There's five of you uh working in the people and teams team, high performance culture remit, multidisciplinary team working with staff and players. What are the kind of defining stories or the defining memories from that year that would be worth reflecting on?

SPEAKER_01 22:34

So I guess um the work that I did split across both players and staff. Um, and um, you know, whilst it was all integrated, it's probably worth me separating out at this point. So I went to a European Cup with one of the junior teams, and I think one of the most powerful pieces of work we did with them was connecting them all into a into a why, into a purpose, into what they're there for and what they wanted to get from it. I think it's it's quite a simple piece of work, it doesn't necessarily need to take a massive amount of time, but doing it up front and then using that as a thread throughout a camp or throughout a tournament, just connecting people back into it, you know, what are they there to do, and making sure that everyone's really clear on their individual part they they're wanting to play in that. So that had the massive benefit of uniting the team together, but also just giving them that direction, that motivation to head towards.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

How did you come up with it?

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah, so I I basically just facilitated a session where they came up with it themselves. Yeah. Um, so again, it it wasn't going to be me saying, Look, I think this is what we're here for, it was me going, What do you think we're all here for? And then clearly there were sort of leaders within a team that would be more vocal. But again, we'd already spoken as a group about everyone's voice being heard, um, and the and they were amazing at making sure that happened. So yeah, I just spent a bit of time crafting it themselves. And if I thought they were going off track a little bit, I'd steer them back on track. But essentially, me just helping to facilitate that conversation, and then I think the probably the most important bit of my role in that was um making sure that it was embedded and lived throughout afterwards, so it wasn't just a conversation we once had or or you know, words on a page, but it was actually lived in that environment, um, and just including little nudges and and carrying on the conversation basically to make sure that happened. We did a little bit of work as well with the with the players around the sort of chimp mindset, if you like, and thinking about them at their best, them at their worst, um, and how they could be at their best more often, both from an individual perspective and team perspective. And that seemed to really help as well. And um again, something that we did once quite early on, and then made sure was sort of in lived throughout the the season. And then with the staff, loads of little bits I I helped with, but I suppose one of the main ones was just making sure everyone was super clear on their roles and responsibilities. Particularly when you go away in a camp environment, things are a bit different, it's a different country, maybe different language, and particularly getting clear on that so that when you then come to a high pressure tournament, people just know. People know where they fit in, people know their roles, and making sure that the communication was as open as possible within that. So that was sort of, I guess, some of the main uh main bits of activity that I did that made made the biggest difference, I think.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

It's interesting that you mentioned even before coming up with a set of values or a a why, like at that common thread, you'd already done a piece of work on how to listen to each other. Am I getting that right? How to turn taking in conversations and respecting other people's opinions. Did I get that down right?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So one of the first things I did was around like personality preferences and how you know you're just as simple as introversion, extroversion, and helping them to understand that particularly in a camping camp team environment, if you're an introvert, you might want to spend a bit of time by yourself, and that's not because you're rude or you're you know antisocial, it's just because you just need a bit of time to recharge. And equally, if you're more extroverted and you just say things before you sort of think them through, and just thinking about all the the ways that people operate and the impact that has on the team and on how you communicate at a super basic level, but that that definitely helped as well. So, yeah, I think that almost like I said, um, at the start of a workshop, I'll do a bit of contracting at the start of a season. I think having that conversation is is very useful.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

But I think that's super interesting, the ordering of how you've you've done that, because quite often, you know, if I've seen people present to me within my world on these are the different things that we can do on high performing teams or um to get teams to work together, quite often you see you know the PowerPoint chart of lots of blobs, and here are the different things we can do, like a kind of a menu of different things, but it never tells you the kind of the order of where they should go. And what's interesting here is you know that seems like a kind of a bit of a keystone or a pillar, an underpinning element of getting people to understand different communication preferences or personality styles, they're building that empathy with with one another so that you can then start to do more complex stuff, which might be to come up with a why or a purpose or or one or find out how maybe that might be embedded. So, I mean, is that something that you you you found the kind of the ordering of of that seems to be quite helpful within not just sport but business as well?

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Yeah, for sure. I think you've got to set set the foundation. Um, and if anything, you know, that that can take the most time. Um so I I mentioned self-awareness earlier. I think it's kind of got to start with that. So, how am I? Um, how do I operate? And then thinking about that in the team environment. Yeah, the the channels of communication, how we operate, what we say, what we don't say, how we act, how we behave. I think just get raising awareness around that before you can then go into any meaningful, meaningful conversations, I think is important.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

The other the other thing I suppose I'm I'm interested in is this idea around having a communal understanding or agreement on our why or our purpose. And the reason why I'm interested in it is because, and you might have seen this author in the private sector, the um Simon Senek, um, who has a book called Start With Why, and he's got a very famous YouTube video, um, I think called The Golden Circle around kind of starting with why, and he uses Apple as an example. And I I know as an author, if you go online, there's you know, there's some kind of pros and cons you can you can say in terms of people um looking at that model or looking at at him as a kind of a an author. But but what I found is that that starting with that that why, that why, what, how kind of uh onion um within the private sector, people really latch onto it. And I I don't really know why. I don't know whether it's because it's of its simplicity, its ability to take a quite complex situation and boil it down to some really key tenets, or whether it's because there's something within us that is always searching for meaning and searching for why. And and maybe there's maybe some there's some nice link there to acceptance commitment therapy and meaning and values and that type of thing. Have you got any kind of reflections on on why something like that seems to be powerful for people?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, it is interesting, and certainly over this period of of change for me, it has it has for sure made me think like, what am I doing? What am I about? Why do I want to do this? And when you don't have that, sure we've all been through a period in our lives where we're not quite sure what direction we're heading in, and it and you just feel that sense of I don't know, panic or loss or frustration or whatever it is that you feel as an individual. But yeah, I think, and it also made me think of um Victor Frankel's man's search for meaning book, um, which again is just is just you know a really fantastic way of thinking about we are all here and meaning is such an important part of life, and I think probably the reason why people do value it so much is because it's just such a fundamental driver of human beings to to need that purpose, to have that purpose. And if you're in a team, the sort of fills that second need of of belonging. Um, so you've got purpose in a group where you belong. Um, I think those two things combined are yeah, enormously powerful. So I also think it's something that in our worlds we we talk about it a lot, but a lot of people don't. And yeah, it always surprises me how how that conversation hasn't happened before and how it can just, you know, a simple conversation can really unite people, not only as a team, but as an individual to drive forward and and give them direction. Um so yeah, I think it's hugely powerful.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Yeah, that's interesting. So you've got there's two key threads there. There's a on an individual level that kind of fundamental driver of of meaning. Great, great reference as well, man search for meaning. I hadn't hadn't thought of that, but obviously that's a key key theme that comes through through there and this kind of work around logotherapy, etc. Um, and the second in this context is is building that that belongingness, I suppose. And uh you you can you can then start to use words around the kind of sports psychology literature, like kind of team coherence and cohesiveness and uh ability to or desire to work on behalf of the team, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Um so that's quite interesting.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

And actually, I think it's um a a sort of common thread between uh every environment I've worked in is that uh people have a direction. I think whatever, whatever context, sport, business, life, um, that direction provides so much.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

The uh trickiness in doing something like this, I suppose, is how often you might need to do it, particularly in sport, but also in uh some businesses where you have a high level of turnover. And I'm thinking maybe kind of businesses that um have a lot of sales staff potentially, or kind of recruitment businesses where there's a high turnover of maybe kind of recruiters that come into the business. Same with some sports, right? You know, you've got high high changeover in players being transferred to other clubs, or maybe even the management or coaches leaving, and and if they they were the ones that that instilled some of these values or direction, then you've got you know someone else coming in. So yeah, I suppose that's um that's just a kind of a common common challenge, I suppose, working in this this industry is um sometimes these things need to be redone or or remade or refreshed.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Yeah, no, for sure. And I think um actually like one of my goals if if whenever I do this work is that it becomes lived. So people that come into that environment they see it and they feel it and they hear it. And the you know, the actual formal um articulation of it kind of backs up what they've already felt and experienced. Um so again goes back to the people taking responsibility to to live it and it not just be something that's written down or talked about. I think that's one of the most powerful ways of it being passed on, um, even when personnel change.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

I know Damien Hughes um in some of his books is is referred to stuff like this as cultural artifacts. Um so so the culture be kind of kind of fragmenting and and could be become a a statue outside the stadium, or it could be a set of values outside the the changing room, or it might be just something that players do before a game, like it. I know the Liverpool players tap that welcome to Anfield sign before they before they head down onto the pitch. So it's those, I think what what I'm hearing there is those things can live on even if you've done the work five years ago. Some of those things can live live on even if the management changes, even if the playing staff changes, etc.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Yeah, yeah, nice, that's a good example.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Um this is something that we we talked about, maybe talking about uh previously, which is uh the kind of the interaction between performance and well-being, which it seems to be something that everyone who who comes on the podcast tends to talk about at some stage, this this interaction um between both. Historically, within our our literature, there were people that sit on either side of that debate and and many in the middle. Where where are you kind of sitting at the moment? Where where is your head at in terms of how these things inform each other?

SPEAKER_01 34:40

It's a really good question, and I think it's definitely shifted as I've as I've gone on, I suppose. Um, I think I came into the to the profession wanting to help people get better at their sport, um and you know, all the benefits that come with that, and I think I've definitely shifted more towards people first, person first, and then performer second. Um, but I think they're so intertwined. You you clearly can't have well, I don't think you can have high performance without high level of of well-being. Um but equally, I think you know, performing at your best helps you to feel at your best. So I think they definitely are intertwined. I'd I'd probably sit somewhere in the middle, but shifting ever more towards um well-being.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah, it's interesting that, isn't it? The the idea that doing something really, really, really hard and and challenging and pushing you right to the limits of your your tolerance physically or or psychologically may result in high performance, which may was may result in high well-being. And I also, by the way, uh I'm aware that there are some really public uh exceptions to that, where actually pushing yourself has has not resulted in that.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Yeah, it's definitely a fine line.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Yeah, yeah. But I suppose that that's where the kind of the awareness around the the interaction happens, right? That that actually it's it's it's not about the the carrot, it's not about the stick. There's the there's got to be a kind of a mixture of of all these things. I know Mustafa Saka talks about high support, high challenge environments. They're pushing people really hard, but actually supporting them along the way is is that something that resonates?

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yeah, for sure, definitely. And and it's actually one of the things I've got written down and made a few notes before I came on. Um, a kind of yeah, common thread, I guess, between all different environments is definitely a culture of high support and high challenge. And I think, yeah, that's it's down to the sort of the coaches and the people who set that environment to to make sure that happens. It actually makes me think of I was reading the other day about a kind of Chinese culture of mastery and how parental, how people parent in in China is get your child to a level of mastery because when they've mastered something, their self-esteem rises, you know, they feel much more satisfied, they clearly have gained new skills and and new abilities. And I think, yeah, you know, getting coaches or leaders or you know, people and people setting the tone of an environment, getting people to a place where they can learn and grow and develop and master things is massively helpful for performance, but also for all the all the psychological benefits that come with it. But yeah, it's just that that balancing factor of of how you do that and make making sure that person as a whole person rather than just as that sports person is considered. Um, and I think of course the other challenge is that everyone's different. So everyone's level of of pressure that they're that they can put themselves under and that they thrive under is very different. So um, you know, for athletes understanding that for themselves, but also for for the coaches and support staff to start to recognise that in in uh in their people.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

I suppose that that goes back to your your point before about wanting to put lots of energy and time into that contracting stage or that that stage upfront with a team or an individual where you really understand the context. So then you kind of can know what the appropriate support and challenge is.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Yeah, yeah. And and I don't know, one of the things I definitely realize in in sporting teams for in particular is the sort of lack of time. So um got technical, tactical, physical, psychological. You know, there's so much focus placed on you know physical fitness, getting the tactics right, developing skills, you know, the where do you where do you fit all this in? Because there's not much time. Um, so yeah, be being able to, I don't know, influence people that around its importance, but also to do it in in a concise way that's that's valuable. That's that's always a challenge as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Yeah, that's really interesting. A friend of mine who who played quite a high level of of tennis, and and he he told me that he was always open to new things if he could integrate it with current things. So a good example might be you know, you have to drive to training in the morning. If something was delivered in podcast form, he could listen to that in the car.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

And then it's it's like you say, it's not taking any time away.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Yeah, exactly. It's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Okay. Well, we've just talked about how difficult it is to summarize or to sum up what to do in any given environment because of all of these variations. Therefore, this question becomes extra unfair um to ask. As we mentioned before, it's really interesting to see how different practitioners, different experts come at this question from different angles. So, Jennifer, for you, what does a psychologically informed environment look like? What does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yeah, I mean, I think quite quite a bit of the stuff we've actually probably spoken about. I suppose if I were to summarize it, I think I've got four key things I'd probably say. So, first of all, that it's an open and transparent environment where people communicate openly. It's underpinned by trust, it's underpinned by honesty. People are able to say what they really think, but they do it in a way that's received well. And equally, people know how to receive feedback, criticism, whatever it is, um, and take it forward to help themselves and others grow. So I think that open and transparent culture is key. I think the second thing is that people have the tools to help themselves and and take that personal responsibility to develop themselves, to develop others. It's not it's not one person running the show or saving the day, but it's each and every person playing their part in that. I think the third thing I'd probably say is that it's values-driven. So people know what it is that's important. Everything they do is aligned with that. So the decisions that they make, the actions that they take are aligned with what they or the group think are important. And I think the final thing that we've we've definitely spoken about, but it's it's that people are considered as whole people. You know, they're not just uh they're not just an athlete, they're not just a business person, they're not just you know one part of them, but they're they're kind of their whole self is considered, and I think people thrive much better when when that's the case. So yeah, that's that's probably the the key things I would say.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

I hope that was summarized all right.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

It was another um what did we say at the start? It wasn't a hitchhike, it was uh whistle stop. Yeah, a whistle stop tour of the of the pie. I really like it. So four key things an open, transparent environment where there's trust, there's honesty, people know how to give and receive information. There's that kind of empathy strand there, I suppose. But that but that the individuals also have the tools to help themselves so that they can take personal responsibility to develop themselves, not just relying on on others to tell them what to do or key leaders to to run the show all on their own, values-driven. So going back to the kind of the meaning conversation that we had before, and um person-centered, so it's not just about the performer or the athlete, or dare I say, in in the sporting world now. Um unfortunately the word asset is is used quite a lot, which is you know, it's might be a business reality, but on the on a personal level, I'm I'm not sure there's there's many people who would ever like to be referred to as an asset. So some really I love the pillars, so so thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

No worries.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Right. So thanks again, Jenna, for for sharing your your insight and your experience across your journey. Uh, so far, there's so much there to take away. So really appreciate you you taking the time to come on. For those that want to keep up with what these projects are coming on down the road in the next chapter of your journey, where can people keep up to date with you? Where can they find you on the internet?

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Yeah, good question. I'm just I'm just starting to improve my uh social media communications, which haven't been very good in the past. So I'm on Twitter, Jenna Wolven, Instagram as well, Jay Wolven, or my website's mindmattersconsulting.co.uk. So uh I'm aiming to keep that quite up to date as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Great. And I noticed there's a um is there kind of an eight-part online series of workshops that are being released. Do I get that right?

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah, so um one of the projects I'm I'm working on is a little um a little venture called Yellowtail. Um, so yellowtale group.co.uk is the is the website, and I'm working with another sports psychologist to run a series of eight um workshops, starting with let's bounce back from lockdown and get back into our sports, but then um starting to explore some different psychological tools and techniques that athletes can use based around acceptance and commitment therapy, but making it kind of really applicable to to athletes. So I think it's it's a good opportunity. We you know, we spend so much time physically training, and and this is a good opportunity to practice and learn some about some of the psychology stuff from from the your own home. So yeah, that's another that's another one that's starting um in September.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Great stuff. And like like we've we've talked about right throughout this this whole episode, different personalities with different preferences are going to want to come into to new things in different ways. And if that means someone wants to to dip their turn to sports psychology through a kind of an an online and content driven way then that would be great. That's a another another person that might have have not come into the into the world of sports psychology. So that that's great that you're doing that. So I'll we'll post the links to all of those things in the podcast description so people can have a look at that. So all that's left to say is thank you once again for coming on. Yeah best of luck with the next chapter in the journey.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Perfect thanks very much for having me.

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_00 44:47

If you are still listening thanks again for sharing another slice of pie with me. There was so much I took from this conversation but a couple of key themes stood out that I thought were worth reflecting on. The first was a recurring theme that has come up a few times on the podcast which is around dealing with negative thoughts and specifically an acceptance that negative thoughts can and will afflict us from time to time. Jenna mentioned it's not about telling myself I shouldn't be having those thoughts and it's very natural to have all the kinds of negative and catastrophic thoughts. Then it's just about choosing to worry about that or choosing to focus my attention on something else. The thoughts themselves aren't the problem but is how we react to them. Now I've certainly benefited from this perspective personally. I think there was a point early on in my psychology journey where every negative thought was an internal battleground, chastising myself for thinking negatively and wrestling my internal dialogue into a more positive frame. However I found doing this constantly hugely exhausting and I think recognising that negative thoughts are a natural threat seeking aspect of the human condition means that as Jenna articulated beautifully one doesn't have to chastise oneself for having them. The more important factor as Jenna also mentions in the episode is building the self-awareness to see such patterns when they occur and then instead of fighting or chastising oneself for the thoughts, choosing actually how I want to react. Incidentally I find popping the kettle on is often a great way forward. The second theme I found interesting was Jenna's experience of going in to run workshops in organisations and giving a refreshing outsider perspective. She mentions that people are really interested in high performing environments and that if they could take one or two things away that could be really powerful and a great outcome. She also reports that coming from a different world was quite interesting to those involved in the workshops. This inverted commas outsider perspective links in really nicely with some of the other Slicer Pie episodes that touch on social identity theory. Particularly the episode with Matt Slater and Chris Hartley where we talk about how you are perceived as an in-group or outgroup member can explain how accepted you are and how effective you are in different social groups. And in Jenna's experience being positioned as a non-threatening outsider bringing in inspiration from high performance sport has resulted in some really positive experiences in certain businesses. And this also reminds me the episode that I did with Chris Souter the Tennis Scotland and Judy Murray Foundation coach and performance tutor who said he had a really positive experience taking his learning from high performance sport into the oil and gas industry of all places. So some really interesting themes to reflect on there from Jenna. There's lots of great guests coming up later in the season looking at topics such as psychology and esports, high performance in the performing arts and also acceptance commitment therapy. So stay tuned for those. That's it from me thanks again for listening and until next time have a good one