SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hello and welcome to the seventh episode in the second season of Slice a Pie, where the pie is the psychologically informed environment, and the mission is to try and understand what that looks like, whether it's sport, business, the public sector, the performing arts, the military, and any domain where we are striving for better levels of performance and well-being. And in terms of looking at different types of environment, in this episode we'll be looking through the microscope at esports. My guest is Ismail Padraza or Isma. He is a performance psychologist working as a practitioner and researcher in Germany, who has come via Finland, Australia, and his home country of Colombia, where he played a high standard of semi-professional football. He's currently the performance coach for Rogue, a professional esports team in Europe that participates in the League of Legends European Championship, the premier League of Legends competition in Europe. He is also on the managing council of NESP, the European Network of Young Specialists in Sports Psychology, and this is where I first met Esma. NESP is a fantastic network for practitioners young and old, interested in sport and performance psychology and pre-COVID, their conferences are a key staple in the calendar based at stunning locations around Europe. So I'll leave a link to NISP in the podcast description so you can find out more about them. But back to Isma. If, like me, you are slightly in the dark about this juggernaut that is esports, this discussion will be a useful eye-opener into the culture, the language, and the pressures that exist in this environment. The serendipitous way Isma and his colleagues found their way into this world is also a fascinating insight and also lesson to all of us how putting yourself out there can pay dividends if you give something a go. So definitely look out for that part of the conversation. As always, we'll dive into the conversation and then emerge at the end for a full-time reflection. Look out for that around 50 minutes into the episode. Finally, thank you to those who have listened to the podcast in its first year. I'm looking at what to do for next year and then planning a season based around short 5 to 10 minute stories from different types of performance environments. If you have a great story from your work or your environment or would like to get involved, please drop me an email at pete at peatjackson.co.uk. Also, if you're liking the content and want to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes, that would be great and help the podcast reach more people. Right, that's enough of me. Let's jump into the conversation with Isma Pedraza. Isma, how are we? Hi Pete. Good, good, good. Thank you. How are you? Very well, thanks. Very well. How is the lockdown situation in Germany? How are you finding it?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah, no, it's um thankfully for me it's uh it's been it's been fine. It's been it's good. Uh I have uh way more time to to catch up with work, uh, and then I'm as well in a good situation. So here in Germany, we are already allowed to to to be outside, so so you cannot really see that um that there was something around Corona stuff. So it's kind of almost uh, I don't know, scary or not, but it's kind of everything is come back to normal, I will say.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Well, that's good. Good to hear that. Um how how where's where are we in the the esports season at the moment? I don't know. Do they have seasons in esports? Where where are we at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, yeah, I mean that was uh that was one of the things like uh for League of Legends, which is one of the games that I'm working in mainly. Uh we have um two seasons, two main seasons. So we have a spring split or spring season and summer, summer season. So we are at the moment preparing for summer, for summer split. Um, so like kind of at the times of corona, we're in between, you know, so we're at the end of uh the spring split and then some kind of the the off-season, and then we're just restarting basically.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Is that word split? Is that a is that a word that you've come across before in other sports, or is that a a word that has kind of come out of the culture of esports, the spring split?

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, that that's a very interesting question because uh I really uh I think it's the first time I I hear it in uh with League of Legends. I don't I don't think that it's another one like that for another another esport. So yeah, I don't know why why it's split. I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah, the first time.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

The spring split, the summer split. I love it. So it'd be there's so much that I want to ask you about the the world of professional esports, so we'll we'll definitely get onto that in a sec. But I think what would be quite useful is for you maybe to kind of introduce yourself a bit and um give us a bit of a tour through your career and how you got to this point where you're now embedded in the the elite esports world.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah, definitely. Well, I I think uh just to try to make it sure, well, uh I come from Colombia, uh, so I'm very long way away from from home. Um and uh so yeah, my my my my my trip has been like trying to to find opportunities in the world of sports. So I studied sports science uh back home in Colombia. I don't know, I think I finished in 2010 or 11, and then from there I traveled to Europe to try to find a master's in in sports psychology since I was very fascinated by it because I play um I play semi-professional football in Colombia. Yep. What what position were you? I was uh a defensive middle middle field in the middle field, like middle fielder. Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

The destroyer, the tackler.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

So I was yeah, I was the destroyer. I was I was uh I was more like a runner, you know, like I have uh oxygen tank for for like kind of three games in a row.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

So I was okay, like can Kancei or Makalele.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So so I was very good at that. So um, but then you know, like I had to make decisions and and I decided to go into into finish my career in Colombia. So um because you have to dedicate your whole time if you want to be a professional player, you have to dedicate your full time. And I'm not sure right now, but at the time in Colombia, like there was not much support for a dual career. Um so I made the decision to go to study and finish finish my my sports science degree. So I confront traditional sports. I I came to Europe to try to try to find a master's degree to continue this education path. And I don't know, maybe I was interested in sports psychology, maybe because of something that I wanted to fulfill for my own athletic career, you know. Uh try to find that edge on performance from the from the mental side.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

When you look back on your football career, when you look back on that, would you in hindsight, would you say from a mindset perspective, you you were quite strong in that area?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I would say so, yes. I think I would have got I always thought that uh for a for a young athlete in any sport, it's always important to have a someone who is guiding you, uh, someone who is giving you some advice or some sort of perspective in different ways. And I think one of those for me, I think what I what I needed was was more confidence on my own my own abilities. Uh so I was lacking of confidence at that time when I was when I had the possibility to to perform at a highest level. Uh, and I was uh, you know, like kind of from experience, something that I think broke me when I was, I don't know, maybe 18 years old or something. I was playing in a in a very well-known uh tournament in Bogota in the in the capital. And so there was we were playing in front of many fans and very passionate fans. In and it was not even the professional level, but it was kind of one below. Uh and then I uh I was playing fine, but then at some point I made a mistake. So we were like kind of the last 10 minutes of the game, and then I commit a penalty. Um, and that was kind of the the crucial game for us to to continue to quarterfinals. Um, so I made this mistake, I was super nervous, uh, lots of people shouting at you and stuff like that. And then just from that mistake, like I couldn't come back into the game, and then it was hard for me to accept it afterwards. So I believe if I had if I had more kind of psychological training at that point, maybe I could have overcome this kind of obstacle that I had in in that game, and then in the in the in my future decisions. So definitely I could have got I could have got more from uh psychological training at that time. Then when I came to Europe, I got the opportunity to do a master's degree in sports psychology. Uh so it was uh it was a double double program, double master's degree uh in Finland at the University of Vascula and in Germany in the University of Leipzig. So it was a European program that it just opened so many doors just because of the connection that you can have with so many experts and and and professionals of the field in from all around the world. So that was that was a crucial part of my of my career on how I ended up in sports psychology. Like, of course, I think I graduated in 2015 or 16. And then at that time, I was already looking into okay, what do I do next, right? Usually in your in your master's program, you have uh I mean you have always the option to go research or to go to the apply field, um, but still you don't feel like an expert in either of those.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

So so I was just I was just like kind of I was very into trying to see how my steps contribute for the future. So what is next? In the master, at the time of the master's program, there was a uh kind of a lecturer uh who was introduced as the uh esports field, the esports kind of you know industry, because I didn't know anything about it. So he was telling us he was working already in with one team in esports in Berlin. And we're like kind of some of us were like, Well, is this a thing? Is this actually considered something that we could go into? Is this a sport? What is this?

SPEAKER_00 11:08

So and this and this is probably what 2015, 2014, 2015?

SPEAKER_01 11:14

That was 2015, yeah. I think 15, 16, yeah.

unknown 11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

So it's even it's five years ago. So it probably is if we consider it a kind of a growing field now, it must have been even more of a growing field back then.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Yeah, exactly. I mean, we I I had no idea about it. Uh like kind of the first time I hear of it was at that time, and it was because of of this lecturer who studied as well in the same program as us, but just like a few years earlier. And then he was telling us like how amazing this uh kind of this industry uh was. So many of us were like very interested, and some others were like, nah, this is I mean, this is not sports, like it's just playing video games, you know, sitting sitting down for so many hours just playing a video game. This cannot be a profession. So like kind of I hear of it and I just I just let's settle, you know, trying to understand what's what is this about. But then, like with my colleagues by the end of our masters, um we thought, okay, we can just make a website or a blog post and just write stuff about sports psychology, about how sports psychology could be applied for sports. But then at the same time, I still had this idea about esports. So so I just started looking into it a little bit more, and then I was I was watching some of the kind of the international tournaments that that were at the time, and I was it was it was amazing. It was just like real public, lots of fans. You can see how passionate they are, and you can see how big this industry was uh was was at the time. So that made me think, okay, I think we should try to go all in into esports in the way of we just create a website, then we just start writing how sports psychology could be applied for for esports, and that's how everything started from from me into kind of how I get into esports. So through this website, like 20 20 days after we launched the website with my colleagues, uh, we just called, we just got called by by one professional organization. Through um through the lecturer who introduced us uh esports, who his name is Weldon Green. So he was working with G2 and he was working with Fanatic and other teams, and right now he's in the States, he's uh North American guy. Uh so through him we got in touch with this professional organization, Misfits, Misfits Gaming.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

20 days. Yes, that's great. Yeah. 20 days after you wrote that online piece, you you got a a request from a team to strike up discussions.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Yeah, you have to consider that sports psychology in esports as well, it was very new. Same as coaching in esports was very new, at least in League of Legends. That was like I think they introduced coaches, like coaches must be part of a team in 2000, I don't know, 16, maybe, maybe 15, 16, I'm not sure. So, as well in 2016, of course, like 16, 17, uh having a sports psychologist or anyone around performance uh was uh was very new. So, of course, like kind of that was the niche, right? And then as well, there were many things, many new things for me, like kind of the use of social media. So we had to go into Twitter and and and Discord and Reddit and all this this kind of social media stuff. But at the time I was considering like, I don't need them, right? I don't, I don't really, I don't like them. I I was feeling that I was wasting my time. So that was lots of changing culture for me in different aspects just to try to be relevant uh in this that we were creating. And we we didn't really know what was going to happen. So so that was the interesting part. That was very interesting. So we got contacted by them, this with gaming. So I was I was the one working with them for kind of a year, and then after that, I mean, like kind of a month after one of our other colleagues got contacted by other team, other organization. Uh they were fun, they are fanatic. That's the name of the organization, Fanatic. And and she was working with them uh part-time, so it was more like kind of every every two weeks or something like that. So we got to experience like kind of both approaches or two approaches full-time, just embedded in the organization, and then uh part-time type of thing. Because well, this was very new for us, so we had to get to know about the game, get to know about the how they communicate, and about like kind of what is this, right? It's it was like we we we could understand at that point that this was performance, but uh it was not that yeah, we know it all, or or we understand we we want to transfer everything into front racial sports to esports, so it was a learning process, well learning process.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah. I mean you haven't got an evidence base, I suppose. You haven't got an evidence base to apply from. So you're I suppose you're having to take stuff from other areas of performance and high performing teams and psychology and going, okay, well, this has worked in other places, there's an evidence for it, but we're taking it into this completely new domain. Let's experiment, let's try, but let's also monitor what works and what doesn't work, and almost kind of create your own feedback loop and your own base of evidence within that context, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah, exactly. That that was that was the main thing. That was uh the main aspect that we had to consider at that time. And we we we we knew from the beginning that we're just exploring things, we were getting to know the environment, getting to know how they work, getting to know what are their needs as well. And because there was nothing to take from. The only person again was just Weldon Green, who was working already with with this team, and there were another two people, I think, that I knew at the time that they were kind of sports psychologists or working in some form of performance with teams, but there was no research on it, there was not like kind of evidence that everything that you do in traditional sports works with esports. So they were just mainly assumptions. So it was just by experience and trying to understand, trying to adapt to this industry. So yeah, so it's uh it was interesting times for sure, because I was I was new, I was a traditional sports guy going into a completely different world. At some point, I kind of realized I kind of noticed myself that instead of watching football every weekend, I was watching video games uh on a stream. So I was like, what's going on with me? This is completely different. I never thought that I would be doing that. So after a year with Misfits, I I moved into well, I think that's that's my other part of the story of my life and my career, and is that I was very interested as well in research. Um during that time in Misfits, Misfits, I was still looking to do a PhD um somewhere in Germany. So I ended up doing an internship at the German Esports University in Cologne. And through them, I got to kind of I mean they gave me the opportunity to propose a research project on esports because, as well, that was very new for them. So it was a very kind of interesting idea and research idea for them. So we applied to some funding, and then I got into to start my PhD uh at the at the German Sports University, and that's basically at the same time as I was kind of finishing my time with Misfits. So I started my PhD in 2018, I think, yes, end of 18. And and then since since since then I'm I'm doing my PhD at the German Sport University, and I started working with another team, another league of the of the LEC of the of the main main league in in Europe, uh, which is called uh Rogue, Rogue uh esports. So yeah, and I'm doing the same work. I'm doing so I'm working at the moment applied as practitioner, and and then in the meantime researching uh the with my PhD in in esports. So that's basically kind of a little bit of my my story, how I ended up in esports, how I ended up uh doing what I'm doing right now.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Well, if you were to draw a map and you were going to put a little pin of istma on the map, starting in Bogota, playing semi-professional football, having this sounds like quite a kind of key moment in your certainly in your sporting life, playing in that really big tournament in in Bogota, being quite nervous, giving away a penalty. Sounds like you've done really well in football, but there's this kind of one moment that has got you thinking about sports, psych sports science, sports psychology from Bogota to Germany and Finland. Yeah, all around Europe, then this chance meeting with the esports uh or the lecturer who's involved in esports, and then the the website getting contacted 20 days later. It's interesting. You you mentioned right at the start that if you were to kind of summarize your career, it's been kind of sniffing out opportunities. It sounds like you've really kind of followed your nose throughout all of that, just following things that naturally feel interesting to you, mindful about how you want to build your career, and then doors to have just tended to open as you've leant forward and started engaging.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, I think I think like from the very first time I left home in 2011, I was very, very into the mindset that I'm gonna take every chance that I have in life, and I try to get it the best. I tried, I will try to get the best out of it. Um, and that's that that was like kind of what it was all in my mind. So I came to Germany the very first time, 2011. I had no idea about the language. I mean, I had some basics, but it was not like kind of I could communicate. My English was really bad as well. It was uh non-existent even. Yes, I um you know our education at the kind of bilingual level, it was not the best at the time. I think right now it's way better. Um but yeah, my English was really bad. So it was like kind of okay, so I need to I need to try to get the best out of this opportunity because at the time as well, there was not like kind of it was easy to leave home and and live in another country that is way more expensive than our own country. Uh so definitely it's been kind of trying to look for opportunities, try to get the best out of it. And then of course, like kind of in between my masters and and and my time here in Germany the first time, uh, I was as well trying to find another opportunity, so I didn't I didn't tell because it makes the story longer. But uh I I live in Australia for a year and a half in between. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah, because because I didn't have English language, so I I had to I had to apply. To a master's program. Um I mean, I found this master's program, this European program, and then I didn't have English. So I was like, oh shit, what do I do? I uh I really want it, it's really interesting, but now my German is better than my English. So, like, oh no. So I found the opportunity to work and study in Australia in in Brisbane.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

I thought I uh I thought I heard a bit of Brisbane in the in the English twang there.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Oh, that's great. That's great. That maybe there is something there still.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah, the Aussie, the bit of the Aussie surfer in mixed in with the uh the Colombian and the German twang as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah, it's uh it's it's a little bit of a mess, but I think uh all those opportunities and all those experiences uh have helped a lot to build some kind of resilience, some uh looking into perspective, the challenges, and looking to these opportunities all the time. So so so yeah, I I guess uh the life experiences help a lot to to be where I am right now and to think the way I think, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Yeah, well, it's very clear that I suppose your your approach to life, your career, taking every chance in in life that you can, looking for those opportunities, when you plot your journey back, it's very clear that you've you've taken that approach and the different opportunities and the different doors that's that's opened for you. I suppose fast forwarding now, so you had that year with Misfits, you're now uh embedded in in Rogue as well as doing your PhD on esports in Cologne. Just for those who aren't as familiar with the world of of esports, when you say you're you're working with a team called Rogue, let's compare that to European football. Is that working with a uh uh Paris Saint-Germain? Is that working with a uh Liverpool or an Everton? How would you equate to something that maybe people who know football a little bit better could could understand?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, definitely. I think the the the situation right now is like we are at the let's say the main league of any of the national teams in the UK or in Germany, Bundesliga or the Premier League. So we are in the main main league, right? Uh the thing is that recently, I think last year, I think it was last year, that we um like kind of the league got franchised. So there are only 10 teams in the league, which gives more stability to the league itself. Um, so so we are teams from different, like kind of the base or the kind of what you call this, the headquarters, let's say, are in different countries here in Europe. So we have like the Misfits Misfits Gaming team, so they are based in France, so they could be the Paris Saint Germain from there. Uh then we have Fanatic, which will be, I don't know, what is the best team? Manchester City from the UK, let's say, or Liverpool from the UK. Yeah, um, and then us who are in Berlin here, we are kind of based in Germany and the States, but we are based in oh no, actually, we're we're based in Poland. We're based in Poland. So we are, I don't know what is the best team in Poland, but so yeah, so we are like kind of like a Wolfson. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, but so so it is it works more or less like that, the league. Um, so but then at the end, we're like kind of playing a Champions League type of tournament. So that's that's that's how it works. So it's at the highest level at the European level. It is hard to say if kind of what relation we are, but in terms of traditional sports.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

So at this at the start of the year, when you're looking at the the European Champions League, 32, is it 32 teams, 64 teams? Can't remember. You're looking at the European Champions League, you're in the equivalent of that in that competition.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah, like kind of the best teams of the Champions League, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

And what is your responsibilities and your contact time like with Rogue compared to Misfits? Do you have a similar contact time with the performers, with the athletes, with the esports athletes, or have you have you got more access and more influence in rogue compared to what you had with Misfits?

SPEAKER_01 26:07

I think, I mean, like what I was mentioning before, that at the beginning with Misfits, I was exploring. I was learning a lot, which I is still learning. Um, but there I was more like more careful about what do I say or how do I behave in the way of bringing my ideas because at the end I didn't know much the environment, I didn't know how things work in this environment. So, like kind of my first split, it was a lot about learning, about what's what was going on, how that things work, how could I work with players, how much they buy in into the sports psychology, so from the players, from players and coaches. So I was more like kind of my my approach was more like player centered. So I was more like kind of working, like having you know, weekly meetings with players, having team activities with players and stuff like that. So it was more like at that level to apply basically what I knew from my master's program to this team, but then at the same time being kind of more cautious about things. But then now with Rogue, like I have already the experience of two years, maybe. So I was I was able to reflect way more on what I did with Misfits, mistakes that I have made, or things that I should have done differently. Uh so one of those was like having a better work with coaches, for example, maybe, and then integrating other other ideas and other kind of performance aspects that I was I was getting a better grasp on it and how to apply them to to esports. And this is mainly based from because I started my PhD, so you get more into research and you get more into the idea to understand how theories could be applied into the real world, and then the other way around. So, what is what are the needs of these people, how we can support any intervention or strategies from research. So I guess like with Rogue, I am a little bit more rounded in terms of concepts, in terms of what we might need, in terms of how we can get the players to buy in into what we're doing. Um so definitely was a little uh it was it was a different different type of work, but it's still the same idea, trying to help players to be better at the game, in and outside of the game, and as well try to bring more the idea of kind of video games or esports is not only about the game itself, but are things around it or outside of the game that they need to be good at to be able to perform at their best.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

That's interesting. What are those things? What are those other things that they need to be good at apart from the gaming bit?

SPEAKER_01 28:40

I mean, this will be going to the idea of um as well from the research point of view, like how uh how the team environment affects um performance of players. So so one of these things is just like how they interact with each other, how they communicate, and their understanding about the game, right? So you need to consider that these players are very young players. So our youngest player is right now, is he's 18 years old. Um, the oldest one is 26 years old, and coaches as well, they are very close to their ages. So I think our coaches, the oldest one is 27, I think. So they are very young, different ages, and then at the same time, they didn't really have much, let's call it normal experiences in life, right? So traveler, traveling around the world, traveling even in within Europe, uh, or just finishing school. Many of them didn't finish school. So they go into yeah, they go into into esports right away. So they don't get to develop a specific type of skills, communication skills, or life skills that you could call. So at this point, it's just try to make up for this lack of uh skills that they might have, right? I mean, of course, they will develop these things along the way, but for us it's very important that they have a good, for example, relationship with themselves. And because this game, League of Legends, is very based on reflecting a lot, so reviewing the game and just looking into the mistakes, how we can improve, and then players have to give this feedback to coaches or to the to their teammates. So, how you give this information to them is very important, right? So, so going into this direction, this is one of the aspects that we work on, um, and mainly based on maybe developing some emotional intelligence, right? And then there are other fields that we include a lot in terms of how to improve their performance and its physical activity, nutrition, um, sleep. So trying to touch all these different pillars that are not embedded into the esports world, but slowly we're getting to help them to understand why is this important for them for their in-game performance, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Those last three areas the physical activity, the nutrition, the sleep. That's super interesting for people on the outside of this world that you're in, because there might be a stereotype that some of us might hold about gamers in general, that all they do is spend every single waking hour at the computer. They probably don't sleep that much, they're not eating that well, you know, they're just grabbing food from the fidge, quick eats to spend more hours on the computer. Is that stereotype completely wrong? Are the guys now at this elite level a bit like your physical elite athletes in the quote unquote normal world of sport? Are they much more like that now in terms of their relationship with physical exercise, with nutrition, with sleep, that relationship with rest and recovery?

SPEAKER_01 31:51

I mean, I think I don't know if I get in trouble, but I would say it's not a stereotypical. I think it's uh it's partially true. Uh that I mean, it's it's just like, for example, when we're younger, if we if we are not used to doing sports and we love video games, we will be just playing all day long, right? Uh so so this this is something that maybe is part of the development of humans, right? We like what is comfortable, and playing video games is very comfortable. But what it changes right now at this stereotypical level is that we are actually at the at the highest level, we are uh including all these domains, try to change this idea around them that they are kind of you know the typical video gamer who is who does not any type of exercise or who stays all night up or who is eating McDonald's all the time. Um, so of course this thing changed, but if you leave them, like for example, for off-season and stuff like that, many of them will get into this behavior, right? Because it's a very easy behavior. And the thing as well is that they have never given specific tools, right? To or or knowledge or education on these different areas, like unlike sports, like you know that you need to eat well, you need to sleep well, to be able to run faster and be able to become stronger, right? So for video games, because there is as well not much research in it, they don't see that much value of doing all this type of activity. So that's kind of the big challenge that uh many of performance coaches are having at the moment to try to integrate these things. But from my team, I believe that they are very aware of these outside of the game aspects that affect their performance. Um, so and I think this is changing very well, like kind of rapidly at the moment, um, because they see the bigger teams like doing exercise, doing yoga, doing kind of I mean, all these kind of performance uh strategies or intervention that help them outside of the game through social media. So the younger ones or the kind of lower teams, lower kind of players or the upcoming stars players get a grasp of it and and they get to see, oh, maybe this could help me. And then as well, like you start doing exercise and you you you will feel way better. You sleep better, you sleep kind of you have a good night's sleep, and then you feel the changes in your in-game performance.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

So yeah. I was just going to ask that actually, within the those areas around time spent away from the computer, whether it's exercise, whether it's the decisions that you're making on nutrition, whether it's sleep. In terms of the physical exercise, the nutrition, the sleep, are there certain elements within there that they really recognize as important? I can understand maybe with the nutrition and maybe the physical exercise to a certain extent that they're they're still learning and understanding how that might be helpful for them, but surely they recognize the value of sleep. They must have had times where they've played games when they haven't had that much sleep and they've recognized the the difference in their reaction times or their decision making. Does sleep come out as a big one that they recognize is very important?

SPEAKER_01 35:13

I think uh it depends on the player. It depends a lot on the player because, for example, the issue, for example, in Misfits that I had was that I wanted to introduce all these kind of routines of physical activity uh and eating, eating better, eating well. But then, like kind of their, for example, their comparison or like kind of their baseline where players in another league at the time was like the Korean league was the best league, players who were who they didn't look that healthy, and as well, like kind of they weren't they they weren't kind of promoting much exercise or kind of healthy behavior, they were actually promoting a lot of long hours playing the video game, uh, and then they still be in the best teams and players of the world. And then when one of these players start doing start doing exercise and just like kind of he was looking fitter and stuff like that. Uh, so this player stopped stopped playing kind of as good as he was playing before. So I think like so, like kind of from that, when they give me this example, I was like, oh well, I mean, what can I say, right? So so kind of my conclusion on that, of course, like you can introduce many of different strategies and you can apply so many of the different uh uh strategies and intervention from traditional sports into esports, but if you don't do it right, uh they might be uh going the wrong direction. So like what used to happen is that the organizations give, for example, gym member cards to the players, to the coaches, and then just go to the gym, right? So, okay, we are promoting physical activity, but the thing is that they don't know what to do there, right? And if they know, they kind of there is not kind of a structure way of doing exercise. So they might feel good with themselves, like kind of, yes, they're you know, building, building up, uh, but then they are tired for the day after, they are they're kind of more, they're not sleeping well and stuff like that. So it's like kind of there is not a structure on in introducing these type of uh kind of out of the game ideas. So it will be hard to say that one is better than the other one just because of kind of there are the influence of different things. Um, but I think what is what it what I find more important and is just to find a specific routine. So they mention a lot, like kind of when they have a good routine, just based on what time they wake up or what time they go to bed, and if they are kind of feeling good with themselves, so and based on other types of activities that we do during the day, that's how they get to feel themselves better. So it is not like kind of they feel like kind of their reaction times are are better or not, because as well, I I I remember one of our players slept like only three hours the night before a game, and he had he had one of his best games in in the season. So it's like okay, so sleep doesn't matter. So yeah, so it's kind of these experiential things. Like, of course, you can argue that maybe because he was tired, so he had to put more attention so uh into the game, so that's why he was more into the game and that's why he was able to perform. But we this is just an assumption, we don't know that, right? That if you are kind of without sleeping for 24 hours or more, this the the kind of the the outcome will be different, but it's still like we need to find some research, we need to find some uh understanding a little bit deeper to be able to bring this to the players. So it's still tricky, still tricky with some players.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Yeah, I can imagine there's I mean, when you said that bit before about them looking across the world to Korea where the best players are, and all of them are out of shape, they're working all the hours in the day, not sleeping much. It it did remind me maybe what it might have been like in the 1980s as a footballer to see the best player in the world, Maradona, and the relationship that he had between sport and you know partying and nutrition and and and and stuff like that. And uh, I suppose maybe there's kind of I know we talked before the podcast about this kind of this idea of a paradigm and a paradigm shift. Maybe there's there's something that will happen in esports over the the next 10-15 years where our view of what looks like elite might shift from something that might have been more Maradona-like to something that is, to take the same football anal analogy, much more Cristiano Ronaldo-like, where that there is there is absolutely no stone left unturned in pursuit of keeping yourself in better shape, better physical and mental conditioning. So it'd be really it might be very interesting to see how that changes over the next 10 years or so.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Yeah, I think that's an excellent comparison. I I I think that's uh that's exactly what happens. And then you can see it in different sports, in different domains, in different times, right? And then, like kind of for esports, what you what you need or what is being required from esports is to have a short-term kind of success, right? So if you can compete in specific conditions and you can give uh good outcomes, you can bring good outcomes, that's okay, right? So that's why like kind of as well, uh, we have experience or we're experiencing a little bit of development in League of Legends of more stability for players, coaches, and organizations to be able to build on this, right? To be able to bring more ideas, to explore more different approaches of performance at then are at the organizational level. But I believe before it was it was super hard to do this because there was too much at risk that if you don't perform well, you are out of the league. And and that's already an issue for many players and coaches. So right now, there is a little bit more stability, so it gives it gives us more space to try to try these type of approaches, and our organizations are supporting this.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

That's interesting. So you are you saying that the the move to the the franchise with the stability of the 10 teams and those 10 teams being in the in the Champions League type environment every year, then allows then the security to start being able to explore how to do things differently.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Yeah, yeah. I think uh it's like now players have contracts of two, three years. Um, before could be in a contract of six months or something like that, or one year, but still you didn't know if if the team will survive. So right now it is more like kind of organizations can think for a long run or a longer run, and they can explore other things. Of course, there are still there is still the pressure to have good outcomes to succeed, but there are more that like kind of the league itself is giving the organizations more time to explore and to base themselves and continue growing because that's what it matters. That's kind of the franchise setting that it is important for the league to see the team succeed, right? To to see the teams grow. So that's why they're getting more into this perspective for exploring new things.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

It's really interesting. I mean, I I love finding these little elements at the organizational level that can have really major impacts down at the coal face at the performance level. And what you've just described really reminds me of of some of the setups, the franchise setups in America. For example, if you take the NFL, quite often every year, you might have some teams that aren't doing so well. And if that was happening in the Premier League football in England, those teams would be fighting for relegation. So there would be absolute turmoil in those organizations. The manager might even go looking for a short-term fix before the end of the season, players worrying about their jobs or even looking to the future. Who do who do I move to next year if we do get relegated because I want to play in the Premier League? In the NFL, those same organizations might be using that time to think about their draft pick for next year, who they're getting out of college, or how they're going to start putting things in place now to perform better for next year. There's there's not that same kind of freneticness, that that turmoil, that that jeopardy around the relegation promotion element.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Yeah, exactly. I think that's that level of uncertainty in a league for a player, for a coach, for a manager, for an organization, it's uh it's it's a killer, right? It's uh you don't know what's gonna happen next year, you don't know what's gonna happen in the next months. So that gives you to make decisions more like kind of uh without any type of risk. So the decisions that you think, okay, I think this, I'm gonna get it right. Um Uh I'm I'm not gonna try much. So so that that kind of hurts development, right? So I think that was a good part for the franchise in in these League of Legends uh league.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

It's interesting, you were getting onto talking about organizational elements, not just at that very lofty franchise level, but also organizational elements within teams. So you talked about some of the things that you were trying to put in place at Misfits and how you've learned from that in terms of how you go about trying to instill or educate or open up the conversation about some of these things at Rogue. Obviously, this this podcast is to do with the psychologically informed environment. And I wonder what the pie, the psychologically informed environment for you looks like within esports. What are those those elements that you want to bring to that environment or you you're learning as you go that you think could be really important for performance and for well-being?

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah, I I think um it's it's really important for for the organizations in esports as well to get informed from what is happening in traditional world feel, traditional sports world feel. Because they have some experience, right? Like it is not that we need to learn from kind of from the get-go. So we have already uh seen how football or how any other sport has developed across the years. Uh so I think like kind of the psychological informed environment for me in esports is to try to bring these experiences, this knowledge from sports psychology, from performance, from nutrition, for from physical activity, how this could serve to bring a better structure for this organization. So part of my job as well is to try to help the environment itself to have a more supportive environment that they could see for a long term in kind of in this structure of esports, because at the moment it's still like it is very unstable. But if you are bringing some ideas from other scenarios from all other settings, so they are able to look into different perspectives and make better decisions in terms of what to do with and kind of at the structural level. So that will be more or less like kind of what it looks to me, uh, not only at the psychological level, but more at kind of how to build an organization and how to build a structure in an environment at the performance level, for example, in my case.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

That's really interesting. So for you within esports, because esports is such a growing area that has got so much to learn, not just from other sports that have done it before, but also from itself. Yeah, exactly. It's it's a learning-growing thing, and therefore the psychologically informed environment for you there is being a kind of a sponge to all of this information and all of this potential gains that could be had from other environments and bringing that in, looking at it, scrutinizing it, seeing what could work, what could help within that esports world. Yeah, and the other thing you mentioned there was a supportive environment. So I suppose when you're doing this, when you're bringing in lots of different things and trying things on for size, seeing what works, you need to have a supportive environment in order to accept these things.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Yeah, exactly. I think that's what I mean with this uh this psychological informed environment is that I need to bring my experience, and they need to bring as well their experience from the inside of esports to try to build something together. Because what I have seen a lot is that some people from traditional sports come into esports and try to change absolutely everything and try to replicate what has been done in sports. But that's that's not how it works, right? Uh it's it's it's uh it's a cooperation between the already people who've been working in esports for a long time, and then us who come from traditional sports and try to build it together and see what things work kind of for the organization and the supporting aspect, like it is it is super clear that kind of social media or video gaming and esports could be like kind of not the most positive or supportive kind of support, supportive uh kind of environment. Um, so I think this is a crucial part for us to kind of change this idea of maybe video gaming or esports is is a little bit toxic or is uh is not very supportive. Uh uh, so I think that's uh that's an essential aspect of when building this type of organizations.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

What I heard there was this idea of it being a cooperation or collaboration. And I suppose if you're coming from you know a professional sport like football or rugby or athletics, and you come into esports, which is a completely different world, your eyes must light up as a practitioner, seeing all the different things that you could change or you could do from your perspective that might improve it. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be effective because the people who are already in that environment and doing it their way, they need that buy-in. And they have their own expertise as well. And it might be that your impression of what esports could do to change doesn't actually need changing. So you need to spend that time to talk to people within that environment to use their experiences and their expertise, and then you build it together. And I suppose what you've described there is it's a kind of a best practice consultant relationship. You bring your experience, but then they have their own knowledge and their own experience. And when you fuse that together, then that can that can provide benefits.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Like the best approach is to really try to understand where you are, in the field where you are, in the in the in the environment where where you are, to try to uh see what works and what does not work, right? Because there are so many things that work in theory, uh, but in this specific context might not work for XY reason. So I think that's that's crucial. And I and I kind of sometimes, of course, sometimes I believe like this approach should be the best approach for my team, but unfortunately it doesn't work. Uh so you need to, you as practitioner, you need to accept it and try to find different ways to see what could be better for the development of your team.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Well, I suppose fortunately for Rogue, they've got a practitioner who doesn't sound like he has a very rigid view on the world. He's a guy who comes from Bogota and Colombia, has come to Germany via Finland and Australia, and and his uh approach is to look for new opportunities. So I I think you're looping back to what we talked about at the start, that mindset that you have uh must fit very well for the for the esports and this evolving industry as well.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Yeah, I mean that there is something as well, like you make me uh remember that recently I was reflecting on how long I've been in esports and how much I have become like kind of how how much I am embedded in this industry. And and then at the beginning, yes, you find this place as an amazing place where you can do so many different things and apply new uh you know approaches and change so many different things. Uh, but then after a few years, you become more part of this structure, and then you start, or just you could stop seeing these things if you don't realize it. So that's something that is very interesting, right? Like that's why like kind of I believe self-reflection is so important to uh, or maybe to stop falling into I am part of this industry now, so I don't I feel that everything is going right. So I think this self-reflection aspect is very crucial when you when you go into a new industry and you are already embedded in this industry to try to continue seeing the changes that you could do and you can change.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Absolutely. That self-refrection aspect, as you've just described, I was kind of imagining as you were talking about it, you're kind of down in the rabbit hole. Yeah, the Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole. And what self-reflection has allowed you to do is every now and then just pull you out of the rabbit hole and have a bit more of a bird's eye view on what's going on. And then at some point you're gonna have to go back down into the hole into the hole again and get your hands dirty and start working with the team. But the reflection aspect allows you just to pull out for a second, just understand what's been going on, start to put patterns together, etc. etc. So, um, well, in terms of reflection, this has been a lovely reflection, I think, on life in in esports. I honestly think that we've only just scratched the surface in terms of the number of different questions. What a fascinating insight. And and thanks for coming on and sharing your your experiences and your insights from your time working with Mitsfitz and Rogue. And maybe in in the future we can get you back on and talk about how your PhD is evolving as well. Because I know that you're doing some really interesting research as well between um research and practice and esports.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Yeah, definitely. I think I think uh it's uh it's just part of the surface of what esports is and what we can talk about esports.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

There's a there's an iceberg left to discover. Definitely. Well, look, thank thanks again, Isma, for for coming on and giving up the time. It's it's much appreciated. If um if people wanted to find out more about what you're doing, follow your exploits online. I know you you weren't as big a fan of social media before, but now you're engaging with it. I'm trying. You're trying. Yeah um where can people follow you? Where's the best place to be for people to find out what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Yeah, sure. If people want to it is interested in in kind of the research that I do. So I'm on research gate as Ismael Pedrasa, uh, also in LinkedIn, and more kind of at the apply level if want to know what I'm doing with Rogue and everything. So that they can find me on Twitter at at Isma underscore pedrasa. Yeah, so I think that's it.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Great. Well, I'll I'll leave those links in the description of the podcast so it's nice and easy for people to to find to find those. Thank you so much again. Been a wonderful chat, really enjoyed it. A completely different world, but a world which as you pointed out, maybe does have some really interesting parallels with with other domains and other environments. So absolutely loved it. Oh, absolutely. Best of luck with the rest of the the PhD. And where are we going into the summer split for League of Legends? Did I get that right? Okay, good. Best of luck with the uh the summer split as well.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Yeah, thank you so much for the invitation. It was uh pleasure to talk a little a little bit about esports and how this could be coupled with other performance domains, which for sure it they do. So I hope uh you're following us with uh our summer split that we want to make it to world. So so yeah, so best of luck, got my fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Please do. Thank you.

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_00 55:12

If you're still there, thanks for sharing another slice of pie with me. For me, Isma's experience in esports highlighted to me the interlocking value of context and organisational design. So let's first talk about context. Isma mentioned that it is not as simple as taking high-performance inverted commerce basics from traditional sports across to esports. Basics such as sleep, nutrition, exercise. Due to the context of this environment, there are readily available examples that fly in the face of your evidence base. For example, the top-level player in Korea, whose form dipped after starting to work out more, or the player on ISMA's team that has their best performance ever after only three hours sleep. Now, of course, we know that these examples could be because of availability bias, and that whilst they might have worked in the short term, the longer term consequences of foregoing these basics could be troublesome, both from a performance point of view and well-being. But the people within this culture aren't to know that. Therefore, the way that you edge your way into the world, listening to what's going on and understanding this environment is so important before you try to invert a commas intervene. In fact, Isma noted that he has seen many outside experts, as he calls them, coming in from traditional sports, trying to change everything, and it hasn't worked. Isma's approach is instead about playing the long game, being patient, listening to players and coaches, being empathetic and treating himself like a student that needs to understand this culture. And then interventions are positioned as little tests. As he says, we are exploring things, we are trying things out. This frames his work as a collaboration, something consultant and athlete can do together, to be curious about how to improve things instead of charging in like a bull in a china shop, bluntly forcing learnings from other environments into this new one. And his ability to do this has been greatly helped by the second key interlocking factor, which is organizational design. Isma mentioned the benefits of moving from a promotion relegation model to the current franchise gated model of the league means that the teams are mainstays of the league, like in American sports like NFL or NBA, and they have also moved to longer player contracts. The removal of short-term contracts and relegation alleviates the tendency for short-terminism that can often lead to a race to the bottom attitude towards things like rest, nutrition, sleep, and well-being. And this links back to my discussion in the last episode with Kath Bishop, where we talked about how organizational levers that sometimes exist silently behind this curtain of what we can see are hugely important in how that environment interacts and behaves in what you can see. In this case, Isma notes that the franchise model and longer-term contracts has led to a higher willingness to try out new strategies and evolve approaches to performance and well-being. Finally, if you're interested in seeing what sport or performance psychology looks like in esports, Isma mentions Weldon Green, a psychologist that has been operating the area for a while, and he has a YouTube channel dedicated to psychological strategies for gamers, and you can find him at the Mind Games channel on YouTube, and I'll post a link to that in the description as well. That's all for me for this episode. Catch you next time for a deep dive into acceptance commitment therapy or ACT with chartered sport and exercise psychologist Joe Davis. Until then, have a good one.