SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hello and welcome back to Slice of Pie and a happy European Men's Football Championships to you all. I hope you're in full Euros fever, whether you're supporting one of the teams and basking in national pride mode, or just enjoying this festival of football and some of the world's best players, particularly the right back. If you're listening to this episode on the day it's come out, you might be looking forward to this evening's Scotland vs England game, the crunch game, the derby. And the timing of this release isn't completely coincidental. Recently I listened to a fantastic interview with the England manager Garrett Southgate on the high performance podcast with Jake Humphreys and Damien Hughes. It's a great insight into the decisions that have been made to develop the England national team culture over the past few years, and I'll leave a link to that podcast in the description. After listening to Garrett's interview, I immediately sat down to edit this episode, the part two of the social identity conversation with Chris Hartley and Matt Slater. Two things immediately struck me. The first was that part one of the episode was released almost a year ago to the day, so apologies to Matt and Chris for taking so long to release this. And to those listeners who were on tender hooks awaiting the continuation of the discussion. And secondly, the other thing that struck me was how Chris and Matt's insights and their expertise and experience in the social identity literature superbly underpin and enlighten a lot of the decisions Staffgate references in that interview on the High Performance podcast. So for those listening, I offer you this challenge. Crack on with the second part of this social identity conversation with Chris and Matt, and then download the interview with Gareth Staffgate. I promise you there will be some fascinating links between some of the insights in this episode from Social Identity Theory and how Gareth Sathgate is applying some of those ideas in the pressure cooker that is the men's national football team. So, on to the current episode. We pick up where we left off with Dr. Chris Hartley and Dr. Matt Slater talking all things social identity and how the insights from the literature apply across a range of environments. If you want to go back and check out part one, I've left a link to that episode in the description as well. A lot has happened in the last year since the part one. We have left and entered and left lockdown again. Matt and Chris have also had chapters published in the new Psychology of Sport and Exercise, The Social Identity Approach, by Alex Hatlam, Katrienne Franson, and Philip Byrne, so I'll leave a link to that as well. Chris has also changed his Twitter handle, so completely ignore what he says at the end of this episode. He has levelled up to Dr. Chris Hartley, so check him out there or on LinkedIn. Matt informs me he is added to the Pygmy Goat with two Ryland lambs and four hens, so lots of big changes going on in Matt's world as well. However, this conversation is as evergreen as it gets, and in fact, releasing it in the midst of a major international competition is kind of perfect timing. We can all listen to Chris and Matt's insights and reflect on how our identities are tied up in the in-group of football supporters, or being English, Welsh, Scottish, Polish, Italian, etc., or just being Cristiano Ronaldo fans or sport fans, and how membership of these groups impacts how we think, influences our behaviour, or affects the acceptance of or how we treat others around us. So with that in mind, let's Rabona straight into the conversation with Matt Slater and Chris Hartley. Right, here's an example. You can tell me whether this is a good example of social identity in action. I did the mental health first aid course last year. It was a two-day course. There were people from Deloitte, there were people from Accenture, there was an HR director from a teaching trust, there was little old me and a few others. And the two people running the course put up a flip chart. Almost the first thing they did, and they said, in the next two days, we're going to have to display some quiet deep emotions. We're going to ask you to kind of open up a bit. You're going to have to do some role-playing. Let's agree how, let's agree the groundworks between us, how we're going to do that. And so they got everyone in the group to make a kind of a list of rules and values that we would kind of live by over the next couple of days, you know, everything from, you know, being on time to listening non-judgmentally to other people. Is that an example of taking people who've come from different places and trying to, at the outset, give them a kind of a set of rules and values to bring them together?

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah, I think that's useful. Yeah, certainly a useful activity. And certainly when we're doing these sorts of things, doing things together is always helpful because it creates conversation, it creates connections. It might create conflict and disagreement, but that's fine. We're not all going to agree. And that's totally fine. That's part of it. Um there's never a perfect world where we all agree, and nor would we want there to be, because I think it becomes better because we can check and challenge things. So and in fact, that might become one of your values potentially within that context. And it reminds me of the work we do around personal discussion and mutual sharing. So we've done a bit of work on this team building intervention where that we call it kind of contracting at the start. That contracting with the team is super important before you dive in and go through the the sharing of stories, uh, which is going to be emotional. You know, I did PDMS, done it many, many times, but did it with an MBA course in Paris in 2018.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Oh right.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

And that was the most that was the most emotional PDMS session I'd I'd ever done. And we had that there was 15 people in the room in a in a lecture theatre. It was a bit of an odd kind of location, actually, for the type of session I wanted to run, but it was a lecture theatre, 15 of us, 10 different nationalities. This was an international, you know, MBA course, and it was just unbelievable. People talk the level of depth people talked about their family and what they'd gone through and things to the to the point where you won't be able to do this now with COVID, unfortunately. But one of the the chaps in the audience got up and hugged one of the other guys who had just finished his speech at the front. Um and yeah, really, really powerful, powerful stuff. And I yeah, if you can bring people together and involve them in the pro I suppose the broader point here is that you know if you can involve pe involve people and empower people to be part of the process, part of the journey, then they buy into the collective purpose more, they they connect with the meaning more rather than doing it in a top-down manner.

SPEAKER_04 6:57

Can I also just build off that? And I think that thing that Matt said there about involving the collective in that process is key. And I laughed a little bit when he said that it might also create conflict because I I'm thinking to any applied practitioner or person who's worked in these environments is that you know, I think I hear a lot of people talking about can we change our culture? Can we change the values by which we operate on a day-to-day basis? And I think anyone who has ever tried to do that will realize it's it's damn hard to do that, and change is very slow. And I actually think Christopher Henriksen um from Denmark has done some really interesting stuff around you know the holistic ecological approach to sport and talks about the creation and implementation of values in the sport environment and how that's a long and a difficult process. But um I actually think you know you can apply a social identity theory lens to that and say that, you know, well, who is it who's trying to instigate those values? Is that person implementing sound identity leadership? Are they trying to involve the group members in the co-creation of that? But then I also think there's some really basic tenets from social identity theory which can be used to inform that process. And you know, one of the things is that the things that um the content that is of significance to a group is kind of postulated to be determined by firstly the historic significance of it. So, you know, I'm I'm trying I'm trying to think of, for example, I'm not a I'm unfortunate, much to my sins, I'm not a football, I'm not a football person, but um probably gets you out of a couple of tricky conversations um living in Scotland, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 8:45

You're not gonna mention Liverpool now, Chris, are you? Yeah, it's uh it's my it's my go-to.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

They've also got the best Scottish player as well, haven't they?

SPEAKER_03 8:53

So it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:56

Well, I was thinking, is it not, is it Liverpool that's they're above their gate that says um you'll never walk alone? Oh thank I'm so I'm actually very relieved I got that right. But um, you know, I think if you think about how how much of a cultural significance that statement has, there's a historical significance to people affiliated with that group, both fans and players, of this idea of unity, for example. So that, you know, drawing on that strategically, that has that that element that is of historic significance to that group might land better if you're trying to instigate culture changes or behavior changes in an environment like that. But then the second factor that determines how how significantly people embrace, for example, these concepts or changes or values is contextual salience, basically. And how important is it right now that we implement some of these changes or that we perhaps reconsider some of these values? And I mean, it's um it's a bit of a I think what I'm talking about now is a little bit of a an extrapolation of some of the more concrete work that's been done. But I know that I think Matt actually you did a study around how manipulating the contextual identity of well, funnily enough, Manchester football identity versus wearing a red shirt can can influence um helping behavior. So that's talking, you know, talking about how how the cont context can change the nature of um the way we perceive groups and how the implications that might have for behavior change.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

Yeah, I mean there's two two important kind of areas there, I think, in terms of a leader always needs to turn to the group and turn to the context and make sure that those are front and center in terms of the decision making and planning and thinking through things and it's you know, within the three R's, which kind of go through a cyclical process of reflection, representing and realizing those are really a core theme throughout those, you know, and it's really important to spend the time reflecting, for example, and and this isn't just kind of reflecting in the way that we know it, you know, it's obviously really important to do that in terms of you know, after a session, we would think about use a reflective model and think and analyse what we did well and how we can do that again in the future and what strengths we've maybe shone through, but also how we want to improve in the future and how we can do that and why things went wrong, for example. But this is about reflecting with the group, thinking about the history, thinking about our triumphs, thinking about things when things haven't been so good, thinking back to and having conversations with the people that were there at the very start, if you can. Um, you know, where did this club actually come from? And and building those foundations, if you like, are really crucial, but do take time for this to land in the sports context. So the one paper we've published doing this in Sports Psych, it was it was a two-year project and it was a year with two similar but different teams. You know, this isn't something that kind of takes a one-day workshop, and you know, I'm looking out over my my garden now, and any gardeners out there will know that sunflowers have got very strong roots, and this is about building that root system, uh, the reflecting stage that you won't get a thriving sunflower if you don't nurture it in the right way. And that's certainly the root system in a sunflower can be aligned to a reflecting stage where you're spending time getting to know, building those foundations, serving your apprenticeship. Alex, uh Steve, and Michael Butter put it, I think, within their book to then allow a really strong sunflower to grow.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Yes, interesting that I think anyone who has been a consultant in some form and through budgetary restraint or access restraint or just what the the organization is is ready to have at that point, who has been asked to come in and do a one-day workshop around some of this stuff may attest to a certain level of energy and excitement that comes out of that. But then ultimately you will hear quite often people say, Well, that felt great, but then nothing really ended up changing. And I suppose that goes back to your your point there, Matt, about the sunflower and and strong roots and and this taking taking time in order to instill some of this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Yeah, for sure. And and change is is is there all the time, I would say. Um it's dynamic because you're having to flex to to what's going on. Um, you might go back for the next session and things have changed. But also would say that these are, you know, three R's, for example, they are broad principles as well. So you can straight away start thinking about once you get to know them and engage with them, you can start to think about well, am I, for example, putting the team first in some of the decisions that I'm making or in team talks, for example, or when I'm speaking to players, am I talking using collective language like we and us that creates it's more able to create psychological connection rather than psychological distance, and that's something that we you know we we would try to work on. So, yeah, there are some kind of broad principles and some ideas, some takeaways, some practical things that you can do kind of from the get-go once you get acquainted with the model. But really to bring about change and create that kind of togetherness, it it certainly does take time. And if I just share one anecdote, I remember when we were doing that project, it was myself and and Jamie Barker's at Worthbury University. I remember the coach speaking to us after probably about three months in or so. It was certainly wasn't really early days in the in the session and in the project. So and he's he said to us, When when are we going to see some differences? And uh kind of kind of caught us off guard. I thought, oh, right, yeah, okay, yeah. Um and it speaks very much to your point there, Pete, that you know, this was a project that we'd been up and running for a while. And he was essentially saying to us that I've not noticed anything change at the moment. And at that point, we were in the reflecting stage and kind of just moving out of it in terms of the activities we were doing with the senior leadership team that we created and hopefully upskilling them to go and lead even better with the rest of the team as well. But yeah, that just speaks into that of that philosophy of of elite sport sometimes in terms of how quickly they they want change, and and certainly we we do see that quite often, I think, in elite sport.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Yeah, there's there's one thing that was um mentioned in there. I think it might be mentioned by both of you actually, which was the history side of things. I know Chris mentioned the Never Wolf Alone, and I think Matt, you mentioned kind of history as used as part of that process. Certainly, that point at which Steve Jobs came back to Apple, if you've seen the film or or read some of the books around it, he was very much about getting back to the point of what that company was for to begin with, and what inspired most people to join that company, which inspired pretty much all the decisions to cut the number of products by about 80%, just to focus on the products that they thought were going to change the world, even down to the advertising. All the advertising when he came back had Albert Einstein on it and some of the great inventors of the past, which was about stirring up what this company was was meant to do. Um, and obviously that that company went on to do reasonably well afterwards. But I'm just thinking again of on some kind of some examples within or business where some of the stuff that you're you're talking about potentially being used there to bring about change.

SPEAKER_04 16:35

As you were saying that there, P, I couldn't help but think it was it was Steve Jobs who went back and did that. It wasn't it wasn't me or or or or someone else as such. And while Matt's uh message about, you know, when it comes to, for example, effective leadership and implementing identity-related changes, for example, the focus is on the act of leadership. But um, I don't know, I suppose maybe this is the more skeptical side of me, I've noticed uh in in some of my research, for example, that the the who the individual is has got some historical bearing on how much change can be implemented. Because I mean, a classic sort of anecdote that I came across while I was collecting data for my PhD was that um if you try and instigate a sort of career management course for high-level athletes and you you stick a group of human resources, um a couple of members of human resources staff up in front of the athletes to tell them about it, they'll be sitting there half asleep. Whereas if you stick up a couple of ex-international athletes up there telling them about it, then they're suddenly listening. And I mean, I think I do want us to get away from those theories of you know leadership that are oriented around your great man theories, et cetera. But the historical connection and significance that the individual who gives that message does, unfortunately or pragmatically, I can't really make up my mind, but it does have a bearing on how successful some of those changes can be. But whether or you know, that's not to say that it can't be overcome with time and with with good with good quality leadership.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah, reminds me of, I think I might have even had this paper as part of my my master's when I was working with you, Matt, a few years ago. But I use the social identity theory to look at Guadiola going back into Barcelona originally, the B team, and then then taking charge of the A team. If you think about his Russian dole, not only is he a former footballer, a former Spanish Captain International, former Barcelona player, and also a Catalan as well. So it as as far as you go down that that kind of that Russian dole model of in-groups, he kind of ticks every boxer there. And in terms of some of the radical changes he made with getting rid of some of the supposed star players, you know, he had so much authenticity and credibility to do that. I think there are anecdotes of Javi and Poyol and some of the Catalan players publicly supporting some of the key changes he was looking to make.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Yeah, it's it's certainly an interesting one. And just reflecting on going back to some of Craig uh White's work in the RAF, we've been fortunate enough to deliver some of the sessions with him when he's um when he's applied um the three hours in in practice. And certainly we wouldn't have been as effective or even half as effective if we didn't have his RAF experience there. Uh even to get involved in the conversation to begin with, perhaps, you know, to even be able to get in front of them, I don't think would have been really difficult without the buy-in and the connections that Craig is. But that is in that is identity leadership in itself, I suppose, and the fact that Craig was able to, through his great identity leadership, put in place a situation where we worked with a range of squadrons to develop some shared values and shared vision and shared behaviours in a setting where it's pretty different. It would be fair to say comparable to in terms of the hierarchical leadership structure they have within the raft. So, yeah, it's it's fascinating stuff. And I was just looking at you know uh back on on Barcelona as well, thinking about they've got a page about their identity on the website. I don't know if you'd come across this, but they've got five values respect, effort, ambition, teamwork, and humility. They're the five principal values that define the spirit of FC Barcelona to read as active on the website. So fascinating stuff.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

So is that your you talked about Craig White there? Is that your responsibility then? Do you think as a consultant? If you're asked by a CEO or a coach to come in and do a piece of work, is that your responsibility? Is it your responsibility to go to them and go, I'm absolutely psyched about doing this piece of work? Here's what I'm thinking. But I also think that you, as a key piece in this puzzle, need to deliver that with me. Or a lot of this content has to come come through you.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Yeah, that's a great point. You know, I reflect on leadership development, and Chris will know that I often start my my talks when I talk about leadership development with this story about how much money's spent on leadership development. So it's according to Forbes. Yeah, yeah. According to Forbes in 2012, in the US alone, it it was $12 billion that were spent on leadership development. And you know, break that down a little bit, that's one billion dollars per month.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

That's the GDP of some small countries, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Yeah, it is, yeah. And uh it has increased since then, but I yeah, it has increased since then, but I always stick with 2012 because it's easier for the maths, you see. So you'll if you bear bear with me for a moment. So it's one billion dollars per uh per month. And that's 250 million dollars per week, if they say on average there's four weeks in a month. And say on average it's a five day working week, although some countries don't have that, but let's go for that as an average. That's fifty million dollars a day. On leadership development. But what's fascinating about it as well is two things that I argue in these talks really is that firstly they're very rarely underpinned by theory and evidence. And secondly, they don't pass what I like to call the Ronfield test, which is they don't do exactly what it says on the tension. So they don't actually develop leadership skills very well. And one of the key reasons why they don't do that, and this is evidenced in academia as well as in practice, is because they tend to create psychological distance between the leaders and the forwards rather than bring them together. And hopefully by this point on the podcast, we've got some people on board on the idea that being together and harnessing the power of the group is fundamental for leadership and teamwork so that we can maximize performance and have high well-being simultaneously. And it's fascinating if you think about maybe how some organizations do leadership development where they kind of parachute out the leaders and take them away for a workshop weekend. It's just the leaders that go. It's just the formal leaders that go. So straight away, you by doing that, you're creating a disconnect between the leaders and the followers. It needs to be a connected curriculum for sure.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

You know, Matt, as you were talking there, that just reminded me we when we when we cover the topic of leadership in our MSc program at Sterling, I uh I'll start by basically proposing two different ininverted commas team building activities to the class. And the first one is not based on theory, as you sort of said, which a lot of these programs and and you know five-day retreats might be based around. I think if you go on Google and you search, you know, leadership or team building activities, it comes up with games like Minefield and things like that. And I think while they're fun and they're enjoyable, you know, it doesn't actually result in the kind of concrete outcomes that you would want from a kind of team building program as such. And then we contrast that with the three R's program as an example. But to go back to your your question, Pete, is that the role of the practitioner? What is what does the practitioner do to have the desired impact? I think, I do think that's a that's a really interesting question in that sometimes I think experienced practitioners talk a lot about readiness for change and having a rich contextual understanding of the environment that you're going into. And I think as I've done more and more applied work, that is just so imperative. I I've I've slowed down considerably the rate at which I work just to spend time making sure, do I really understand this environment? Am I using the right language so that when I do pitch my idea, it's not just going to land flat on its face because it doesn't resonate with the way this group operates. Am I the best person to do this, to have this conversation? Am I the best placed individual? And I think, yeah, I mean, it's it's obviously about managing expectations and working and setting up good working agreements from the outset. But I do think, you know, that that is a that is a key perspective an effective practitioner or coach needs to embrace is the are these careful and constantly changing social dynamics that are going on that need to be considered.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I think there's some fantastic, even just to make this super applicable for people who are who are listening who might be going into a situation like this, whatever environment they're in, or whatever kind of consultancy role they play, you know, what is the readiness uh for change within that organization? What is the contextual information that I need and how do I get that? Do I really understand this environment? Am I using the right language? And am I the best person? Should it be me? Should it be someone else? Is it a combination? I think there's some great, great questions there to uh for people to ask themselves.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Also, Matt, $12 billion, $1 billion a month. I can see why you're trying to take your career more into the leadership, education, and side of things. Um, we're getting to the end of the podcast now. So I want to leave just a little bit of time for both of you to answer the question that I ask uh everyone. And I think evidenced by the number of places that we just went off there on this conversation around social identity. It's gonna be almost nine possible to encapsulate all of that. But I'm really interested in the angle that people bring to the question, which is what does a psychologically informed environment look like to you? What does that mean to you? Maybe we'll go to Chris first.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

Sure. Well, I was actually thinking, okay, so I was thinking basically a psychologically informed environment for me is where everyone, particularly the background staff, the people who kind of keep it running on a day-to-day basis, are acutely aware of the potent influence that in-group and out-group memberships can have on the way that things are done here. And for me, maybe that's just because that's where a lot of my work focuses, is being potently aware on how that can influence helping behavior. So thinking about does this group that I'm trying to work with have a barrier against seeking mental health support, for example? Will this group be receptive to this kind of suggestion? Am I the best placed individual to do that? And, you know, I think to help inform your thinking about that, and anyone who's listening is thinking about that. I imagine a lot of people, if they've done psychology degrees or if they've listened to any kind of introductory psychology documentary or whatnot, you might have come across Sheriff's classic 1954 Robber's Cave experiment, which, you know, for those who aren't familiar with it, is where Sheriff set up this uh this camp, sort of a scout camp that lasted for several days with boys from the local area, young, young boys from the local area, and they were basically just separate into arbitrary groups. And there was a lot of intergroup conflict that arose from this. It had concrete implications for how they helped each other, how they treated each other, and how effectively those groups were able to come together and operate. So I would actually invite people to think about those really fascinating and historical studies. I'm also thinking of the ash conformity experiments where people agreed on the length of lines around a group. You know, consider those, how potent an influence those social forces can have on how we shape behavior. And I think for someone who is acutely aware of those forces, they can they can harness that for effective change very, very powerfully.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

That's super interesting. The pie is a general awareness of how things are done here and an appreciation both with in-group and out-group members, their relationship with that group. And if you have a good awareness of the powerful social forces that impact on a group, then you're in a good position to start making changes in order to optimize.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Absolutely. I think that's very eloqu, very eloquently put.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yeah. Great. Well, I was only reflecting back what you said, um, Chris.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

Yeah, I think it's a good, and just to pick up on you, just to say a little bit more, if you don't mind, Pete, before I get into my my kind of thoughts on the pie. Um, and I'm I'm really glad you went for pie, actually, being um a proud Lancastrian, pies are um you know a staple, a weekly staple, if not more often, when I was growing up. So I like the idea of the pie. But I was just thinking. Yeah, I was thinking about the old kind of adage that we use around or that's out there, that you you don't know what's possible until you try. And it's often kind of thrown around when people or try new things, maybe, or to or to build confidence and that sort of thing. But I think one way we try to spin this is is to say we don't know what's possible until we try to focus on those on what we can achieve when we when we pull together, hunker together, harness the power of the collective, and yeah, we're not we don't know where we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

I like that. It's a it's a nice build, and I think it's you know it's it's true to life. You know, it's it's the kind of the old adage that you know we don't we don't have the crystal ball and we've got information from history that allows us to maybe put the odds in our favour or to kind of narrow down the the chance of risk, but we don't truly know where that's gonna go, but kind of reframing that as something as an exciting place opposed to a kind of a scary place to go. Um so I do like that. So so go on then. As a proud Lancastrian, how are you carving up your pie?

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Uh well, with no reference to uh Lancashire, unfortunately. Now I feel like I should rewrite it actually. Now my vision for a psychologically informed environment would first and foremost put the person before the athlete. The second string to the bow would be that it's an environment where all team members, so athletes, coaches, science and medicine staff, uh, admin staff, they all feel the strongest sense of togetherness with shared values, behaviors, and and a collective vision. And ultimately we don't know what's possible until we try.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Oh I like that. So you've got you've got an appreciation for the individual and the the context with which they're in in terms of the group. So the I th I suppose that first bit is is seems like that's a kind of a value of yours that you know if you focus on the the person before the athlete, that's gonna have benefits not just for kind of well-being, but for consequently performance as well. If you're you know kind of happier in yourself, you can perform a foot. I suppose it's the kind of Bill Belichick thing, knowing exactly what's going on with his his athletes and and looking at that first before even talking about performance. And then you've got, you know, okay, so let's zoom out bird's eye picture here, though all of those people performing in an environment and all of those people also have coaches and support staff, and all of those people, whether it's the the performer or the the coaching staff, need to be supported themselves. They need to have a collect a collective idea of of values and the vision where they're they're going towards. Um and if all of those things come together, then we're in a we're we're in a good place.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

For sure. Yeah, sounds good to me.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Great stuff. Great. I'm always nervous when I reflect these back to people. And uh actually, have I been listening right? Um, okay, good, good, good agreement. Um, I love both of those pies. Um, unfortunately, uh we don't send out complimentary pies um to guests on the on the podcast, but maybe when maybe when down the line, if we get a sponsor, maybe Greg's will will sponsor the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 32:46

Well, I know I know what I want when lockdown eases more is a is a is a Lancashire pie. I've never never had one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

All right. Great, great. Um, well, look, thanks so much um both for for making some time available today to talk about this stuff. Honestly, I think we could have gone on for another uh another hour or two. There's so much interesting stuff to to talk about. But thanks again. Let's talk about where people can keep up to date with what you're both doing. Chris, where can people follow you online?

SPEAKER_04 33:13

Sure. I am probably most active on my Twitter. So um you can follow me at cycling. And there's another link to cycling again back there for you.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

So it's like it. Like it.

SPEAKER_04 33:24

My Twitter handle is a combination between psychology and cycling. Um that's my Twitter handle where most people can keep up to to date with me.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Great. And uh and Matt, where can people follow your prolific exploits, exploits, lecturer, author, researcher?

SPEAKER_03 33:43

So no, yeah, no links. Um I like Chris's link there to cycling, no links to pygmy goats here. But um, I'm also yeah, active on Twitter. Uh I'm at Dr. Maxer. And I've got a book out that came out in 2019 called Togetherness, How to Build a Winning Team. So that's a concise book that focuses on the science of togetherness, but then also practical activities for how to go out there and do it in practice. And then also, I guess, my research gate, if you're keen to read some papers on social identity work, then yeah, check out my research gate as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Great, great stuff. Well, I'll as always I post all the links to those places in the podcast description so it's easy for people to find them. Look, thank you very much again, gents. Really enjoyed it. The first group interview on slice of pie in the can, and it was a really thoroughly enjoyable one. Um, so thank you very much for um for your time and you know, best of luck in the in the next few months and and uh and beyond that.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Uh thank you very much, Pete. Cheers, Pete. It's good. Well, it had to be on social identity, didn't it? If it was the first group one.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Oh, that's appropriate, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

There you go. How delight. I should have written that down myself. You still the best gag. Brilliant. Yeah, as you say, yeah, good link there. So thanks very much, gents. Have a good one.

SPEAKER_04 34:58

Always, thank you very much, Pete. And Matt as well. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Cheers, guys.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Yeah, take care. Thanks, Lat.

Full time reflection

SPEAKER_00 35:05

If you're still listening, thank you for sharing another slice of pie with me. It's only been three weeks in between episodes this time, so we're starting to get back into the flow of things. So I wonder whether you picked up on some of the links between Matt and Chris's insights and the Gareth Southgate interview. If you don't want any spoilers, feel free to pause now, go and listen to the high performance podcast episode with Gar Southgate, and then come back. For the rest of you, or those who quite frankly can't be bothered to do that, here's the connections that I made. Firstly, Chris mentions the importance of historical significance in groups, the stories, the experiences, the shared meaning woven into the fabric of our groups. All factors that need to be appreciated and considered when wanting to enact change. In the Gareth Sadger interview, he talked at length about a few factors that historically have not been helpful to the national team. These might include the media expectations or even the relationship with the media, the historical club versus country debate, and the weight of pressure felt by those that wear the shirt, resulting in a sense of fear, making the mistake that would be written about in the tabloids instead of feeling excitement at displaying your skills and being prepared to take risks in order to do so. So a lot of these themes you can pick up in that interview with Gareth Southgate. Chris also talked about contextual salience. So, in other words, how important is right now in the context of this group and making potential changes to it? Again, Southgate mentions the context of him taking over, the trauma of the Euro 2016 exit from that tournament and the defeat to Iceland. Southgate states, it couldn't have been much worse, but also then a good time to come in and start making changes because it was clear that those changes were needed. In psychology, we often talk about stages of change, you know, the flow charts with the colourful wheels that turn from pre-contemplation to contemplation to planning to action, etc. The organisational readiness to do things differently was very high when Southgate entered the role to not only look at selection, but the full talent pathway structure, the relationship with the media, the experience of being with and travelling with the team, the way playing for England is recognised and honoured with the introduction of the cap ritual seen in other sports. If you listen to the interview, there are probably a hundred other changes that I've missed out here, from small ones to big ones. And I'm really super interested in what you all take from this episode in combo with the interview on the High Performance podcast. So please drop me a line on Twitter, LinkedIn, or over email if you make any additional links, I'd love to hear them. So that's it for this episode. Just an obligatory shout out for reviews on iTunes if you have the time. That's always super helpful and much appreciated. So catch you for the next episode, and in the meantime, enjoy the game, enjoy the Euros, and see you for the next one.